My Lai 2012?

[Christopher Jon]

It'll be amusing when we pull out and the country falls to shit again. Shit happens but it's not as bad as the shit to come.

[shootemindehead]

Karzai also appears sceptical about the "official" US version. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...llage-massacre Interestingly, he mentions: "This has been going on for too long. You have heard me before, therefore, it is by all means the end of the rope here," he said of the killings, which he described as the latest of "hundreds" of such incidents nationwide."

[Christopher Jon]

"This has been going on for too long. You have heard me before, therefore, it is by all means the end of the rope here," he said of the killings, which he described as the latest of "hundreds" of such incidents nationwide." It's war. It's ugly. End of story.

[SymphonicX]

It's war. It's ugly. End of story. That's how you rationalise the murder of 9 children shot at point blank then burned in a pile of bodies? How's this for a rationale: 9/11 - it's war...it's ugly, end of story. The holocaust: it's war. it's ugly, end of story. Vietnam: fuck your PTSD, it's war, it's ugly. End of story. No. -- -------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 PM ---------- It'll be amusing when we pull out and the country falls to shit again. Shit happens but it's not as bad as the shit to come. it'll be amusing? Wow.

[Mike70]

That's how you rationalise the murder of 9 children shot at point blank then burned in a pile of bodies? How's this for a rationale: 9/11 - it's war...it's ugly, end of story. The holocaust: it's war. it's ugly, end of story. Vietnam: fuck your PTSD, it's war, it's ugly. End of story. it isn't just vietnam vets. i've already shared my struggles with PTSD and how hard it is to deal with. i'm also active in the VA support system for vets that are seeking help and treatment. when i deal with/meet with these kids coming back from afghanistan, it literally breaks what little heart i have left. these two wars have cost america so much that most people not involved in the VA or its attempts to help people have NO conception of just how much this has cost us in lives lost, limbs lost, and lives ruined because of mental health issues. i don't even frikking care about all the money that's been spent. money is nothing next to life. it's nothing next to having all four limbs. it's nothing compared to your mental health. dismissing it as just "war" borders on the asinine. war is ugly and brutal and yes, civilians do get killed. that is the horrible nature of the beast. but what happened in this situation has nothing to do with war. it has everything to do with someone who reached his breaking point and for some reason no one around him saw the signs coming (and yes, there would've been signs). the more i work with vets, the more disgusted i get with the military. ALL of them. not just the US. all it does is ruin lives and destroy people's well being. i grow increasing tired of whores in expensive suits sending kids off to do their damn dirty work. if congress wants this shit to continue, i would suggest that they be forced to subject their own children to it - all of them. but no - most of them go off to places like harvard or yale or some other hoity toity college where they are taught they are better than "regular people" and thus the cycle continues. sorry, i've run on yet again but this has really, really bothered me because in the last year or so i've become very involved in trying to help people that went through what i did and the asshats in washington are not making it easy.

[SymphonicX]

it isn't just vietnam vets. i've already shared my struggles with PTSD and how hard it is to deal with. i'm also active in the VA support system for vets that are seeking help and treatment. when i deal with/meet with these kids coming back from afghanistan, it literally breaks what little heart i have left. these two wars have cost america so much that most people not involved in the VA or its attempts to help people have NO conception of just how much this has cost us in lives lost, limbs lost, and lives ruined because of mental health issues. i don't even frikking care about all the money that's been spent. money is nothing next to life. it's nothing next to having all four limbs. it's nothing compared to your mental health. dismissing it as just "war" borders on the asinine. war is ugly and brutal and yes, civilians do get killed. that is the horrible nature of the beast. but what happened in this situation has nothing to do with war. it has everything to do with someone who reached his breaking point and for some reason no one around him saw the signs coming (and yes, there would've been signs). the more i work with vets, the more disgusted i get with the military. ALL of them. not just the US. all it does is ruin lives and destroy people's well being. i grow increasing tired of whores in expensive suits sending kids off to do their damn dirty work. if congress wants this shit to continue, i would suggest that they be forced to subject their own children to it - all of them. but no - most of them go off to places like harvard or yale or some other hoity toity college where they are taught they are better than "regular people" and thus the cycle continues. sorry, i've run on yet again but this has really, really bothered me because in the last year or so i've become very involved in trying to help people that went through what i did and the asshats in washington are not making it easy. I totally agree, 100% - I was just generalising with the Vietnam thing because PTSD became a pretty prevalent issue off the back of that war - but yeah, I absolutely sympathise with all vets regardless - however whathisname's post riled me a bit with him summing up the entire thing (including by assosciation your experiences which you've been kind enough to share) as "oh it's ugly"... Terrible.

[Christopher Jon]

I totally agree, 100% - I was just generalising with the Vietnam thing because PTSD became a pretty prevalent issue off the back of that war - but yeah, I absolutely sympathise with all vets regardless - however whathisname's post riled me a bit with him summing up the entire thing (including by assosciation your experiences which you've been kind enough to share) as "oh it's ugly"... Terrible. Well, I've actually been there, Afghanistgan. Mike has earned the right to speak his mind, most of you don't know and never will know. Just say Thank You. And yes, war is dirty, ugly and bloody. It's not a video game. People die.

[Sammich]

Bales is nothing but a criminal psychopath and I really wish people would quit trying to make up excuses for what he did, or does UCMJ article 118 no longer exist?. The guy not only took part in mass murder and reported rape of 2 of the women killed, but also defrauded an old couple out of $850,000 before running to the military to evade accountability. Afghan Murder Suspect Bales 'Took My Life Savings,' Says Retiree Robert Bales, the staff sergeant accused of massacring Afghan civilians, enlisted in the U.S. Army at the same time he was trying to avoid answering allegations he defrauded an elderly Ohio couple of their life savings in a stock fraud, according to federal documents reviewed by ABC News. "He robbed me of my life savings," Gary Liebschner of Carroll, Ohio told ABC News. Financial regulators found that Bales "engaged in fraud, breach of fiduciary duty, churning, unauthorized trading and unsuitable investments," according to a report on Bales filed in 2003. Bales and his associates were ordered to pay Liebschner $1,274,000 in compensatory and punitive damages but have yet to do so, according to Liebschner. "We didn't know where he was," Liebschner told ABC News. "We heard the Bahamas, and all kinds of places." Liebschner says he recognized Bales after news reports named him as the American soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan villagers in a shooting rampage.

[SymphonicX]

Well, I've actually been there, Afghanistgan. Mike has earned the right to speak his mind, most of you don't know and never will know. Just say Thank You. And yes, war is dirty, ugly and bloody. It's not a video game. People die. I'm really not in the right frame of mind to reply to this inanity. Forget it.

[AcesandEights]

Well, I've actually been there, Afghanistgan. Mike has earned the right to speak his mind, most of you don't know and never will know. Just say Thank You. And yes, war is dirty, ugly and bloody. It's not a video game. People die. I can't see how your above post addresses the matter at hand. There's a world of difference between "people die in a war zone sometimes" and it being okay to murder--essentially execute--helpless civilians, which is the accusations we're discussing. No amount of throwing your service in other peoples faces is really going to convince a large number of people otherwise, it just cheapens the whole discussion.

[SymphonicX]

I can't see how your above post addresses the matter at hand. There's a world of difference between "people die in a war zone sometimes" and it being okay to murder--. *yeahthat*

[Mike70]

this thread has begun to go down the road to nonsenseville. what was a serious discussion of what war does to people has been cheapened by reductionist thinking and the usual, nutty american fascination with conspiracies. i've failed to see any excuses offered, only attempts at understanding. oh, i also didn't realize that some of you were MDs practicing in the areas of psychiatry and neuroscience and therefore capable of making complex mental diagnoses from newspaper articles. congrats. that would make you the greatest doctors ever - if such a thing were possible.

[Sammich]

It doesn't take a MD to know that an individual isn't normal if they deliberately defraud an elderly couple out of their life savings, intentionally evade accountability then participate in mass murder, rape and arson. Maybe those acts are acceptible behavior in your country, but they sure aren't in the U.S. -- -------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 PM ---------- I can't see how your above post addresses the matter at hand. There's a world of difference between "people die in a war zone sometimes" and it being okay to murder--essentially execute--helpless civilians, which is the accusations we're discussing. No amount of throwing your service in other peoples faces is really going to convince a large number of people otherwise, it just cheapens the whole discussion.

[Mike70]

It doesn't take a MD to know that an individual isn't normal if they deliberately defraud an elderly couple out of their life savings, intentionally evade accountability then participate in mass murder, rape and arson. Maybe those acts are acceptible behavior in your country, but they sure aren't in the U.S.[COLOR="Silver"] *sigh* actually, you do have to be an MD to make any kind of medical diagnoses. i hope the comment about "your country" isn't aimed at me because if you haven't figured out that i am an American, then you clearly have not been paying attention to this thread.

[Tricky]

Well, the repercussions of these incidents have clearly not sunk in, heres another one just reported on Sky News http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16211718