Absoluetly disgusting...

[MinionZombie]

(I would have said "balls and compassion" but I want to be fair to our female soldiers! ) They have theoretical balls.

[strayrider]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5908534.ece "AN Islamic cleric, whose supporters led a hate-filled protest against British troops returning from Iraq, has urged his followers to give cash to front-line mujaheddin fighters ... telling his followers to stop spending their money on their families and divert it to Muslim soldiers waging jihad, or holy war ... urging British Muslims to give money to Al-Qaeda-linked insurgents in Iraq." -stray-

[Yojimbo]

They have theoretical balls. Touche!

[SRP76]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5908534.ece "AN Islamic cleric, whose supporters led a hate-filled protest against British troops returning from Iraq, has urged his followers to give cash to front-line mujaheddin fighters ... telling his followers to stop spending their money on their families and divert it to Muslim soldiers waging jihad, or holy war ... urging British Muslims to give money to Al-Qaeda-linked insurgents in Iraq." -stray- Too fucking funny. For years, all we've heard is how "this is a war against Islam! It's a war to stop our religion!" and all that bullshit. Read that paragraph. Now, tell me, who is making this war about religion? Who? Not us, that's for damn sure. Why does nobody ever publicly calls these fools out on things like this?

[SymphonicX]

argh I fucking hate soldier worship. They chose that job - I give them just as much respect as I would a bus driver. (Which probably has a higher death rate in London). Sorry. It's true. You chose to go out there and get your arms, legs, and face blown off - don't expect me to love you for that. You made that choice, regardless of how noble the decision may have been. You're a hired killer...trained to take life...and unfortunately a necessary evil but don't expect me to lap at your boots with respect. As for the soliders who were drafted in WW1 and WW2, I have the highest regard for - a noble cause that changed the world (well, in ww2 case....ww1 was just a bunch of paranoid leaders rallying against each other purely out of fear) - they didn't ask to go out there but they came back heros. But since then, sorry there's been no draft, and you didn't need to go. I don't care why you're there and what you have to prove.

[Yojimbo]

I don't care why you're there and what you have to prove. Symphonic, I usually agree with a lot of what you post, but on this issue I respectfully disagree with you. I personally know folks who joined specifically because of what happened in 9/11, and they joined out of a patriotic and sincere desire to protect the USA from those who are intent on doing harm to our country. Whether or not you agree with what is going on in Iraq or Afghanistan, I think that those who are serving and risking their lives over there deserve respect for what they are doing. I don't know that it is entirely fair to dismiss this respect for them as "soldier worship"

[SymphonicX]

Yojimbo always nice to hear from you. Bottom line man: they still "choose" to go...Patriotism is a dangerous and disgusting thing (imo) - which actually just makes the whole thing worse for me. Ugh. One thing that really gets my goat is English people who refer to the army as "our boys"....just sounds so fucking tabloid...argh...it really winds me up. They're not my boys, theyre a bunch of 19 year old kids hired to kill. Absolutely nothing to do with me and I distance myself from the whole thing. But there you go, call me a liberal fascist - it's all good...lol...I would rather go to prison than serve in the armed forces, and if there was another draft I'd probably take that as an option. That's just me though, I've said my bit - I totally respect people's sense of love and what they want to give it to...so I'm all for people supporting the troops, if they want to, it's not something I personally would even think about doing.

[Tricky]

Not everybody in the forces is a "hired killer" as you put it,how about all the admin clerks,logistics staff,drivers,police,engineers etc who are all serving in those war zones?and besides,probably only half of all combat infantry who have served in both war zones have actually fired in anger,COD4 it aint! My ex girlfriend is currently on the main gate at Basra palace with the RAF police,shes certainly not a "hired killer",shes just doing a job because its a well paid career that offered her far more prospects than working in bars or an office in this dead end part of the UK, and i have a lot of respect for her doing it. The reason there isnt a draft is because these people actually volunteer!some squaddies are admittedly dickheads,but a lot of them are decent lads who deserve at least some respect for doing what they do so you dont have to.

[SymphonicX]

Admin roles, or going out on point in a war zone - I don't care really. You can be a chef as far as I care - just because you are a small cog in a big wheel doesn't make that career choice any less distasteful in my eyes. And that whole adage of "they're doing it so I don't have to" can only suck the energy from my previous comment of them being a necessary evil - an evil all the same which I have already predisposed myself against being a part of. They aren't doing something for me, they're doing it for whatever silly reasons they have to do it. I'd rather that they didn't exist - the idealist in my would rather than a military wasn't needed by ANY country - as short sighted as that sounds. But there you go. I'm probably better to duck out of this because obviously not everyone feels that way and I certainly don't go out of my way to offend - but yeah, I have zero respect for military, anyone who brandishes a weapon against another human being, and anyone who supports directly or indirectly these people. It just aint me, and never will be...:s

[MinionZombie]

Not everybody in the forces is a "hired killer" as you put it,how about all the admin clerks,logistics staff,drivers,police,engineers etc who are all serving in those war zones?and besides,probably only half of all combat infantry who have served in both war zones have actually fired in anger,COD4 it aint! My ex girlfriend is currently on the main gate at Basra palace with the RAF police,shes certainly not a "hired killer",shes just doing a job because its a well paid career that offered her far more prospects than working in bars or an office in this dead end part of the UK, and i have a lot of respect for her doing it. The reason there isnt a draft is because these people actually volunteer!some squaddies are admittedly dickheads,but a lot of them are decent lads who deserve at least some respect for doing what they do so you dont have to. Plus modern warfare doesn't require the sheer volume of recruits that WW1 and WW2 did - in which millions of people died. The civilian populace at large should be thankful that improved technology, changes in legislation, and most importantly of all - people volunteer for service so we don't have to. I know I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a place where it's stupidly hot, where you're being shot at all the time, where you might step on a landmine and get blown up, where the rules of engagement constantly hamper your progress, where no matter how much good you do, it almost never gets reported because only the down side ever usually gets shown. There was an interesting article by Jeremy Clarkson recently, if I can go off topic for a moment, where he was pointing out news coverage of foreign wars and domestic wars - we get reported in depth coverage that's full of statistics of foreign wars, yet we get a surface skim of our own wars to the point where nobody really knows what's going on ... we just know that something's going on, but not a lot more. Interesting article.

[SymphonicX]

oh man...you just used Clarkson against me... noooooooo hehehe

[Yojimbo]

I'm probably better to duck out of this because obviously not everyone feels that way and I certainly don't go out of my way to offend - but yeah, I have zero respect for military, anyone who brandishes a weapon against another human being, and anyone who supports directly or indirectly these people. It just aint me, and never will be...:s What makes democracy great is that folks don't always have to agree, and we can have a healthy dialogue even if we see things from opposite sides of the spectrum. I know that there are folks who are morally opposed to the millitary, like you, and can understand and respect your beliefs in that regard and those beliefs, even if they are not mine, are legitimate and worthy of an audience. I for one am not offended by your beliefs and welcome hearing your thoughts these issues, even if on this particular issue we are not in complete and total agreement. (On a side note, totally unrelated to this topic, I just noticed that my caption under my name changed from "Twitching" to "Walking Dead." Not sure when this happened, and I know it's not really an accomplishment of any import, but still I cannot help but feel... oddly proud!! Ok sorry for the digression - just had to share my pseudo achievement with someone!)

[Mike70]

argh I fucking hate soldier worship. They chose that job - I give them just as much respect as I would a bus driver. (Which probably has a higher death rate in London). Sorry. It's true. You chose to go out there and get your arms, legs, and face blown off - don't expect me to love you for that. You made that choice, regardless of how noble the decision may have been. You're a hired killer...trained to take life...and unfortunately a necessary evil but don't expect me to lap at your boots with respect. As for the soliders who were drafted in WW1 and WW2, I have the highest regard for - a noble cause that changed the world (well, in ww2 case....ww1 was just a bunch of paranoid leaders rallying against each other purely out of fear) - they didn't ask to go out there but they came back heros. But since then, sorry there's been no draft, and you didn't need to go. I don't care why you're there and what you have to prove. nice how you qualify this post of yours with a nod to WWII and WWI vets - does that make you feel better? i am always amused by loud mouthed, pussy ass motherfuckers who run off behind the freedoms and civil liberties that others choose to risk their lives to guarantee. i take serious fucking exception to the notion of soldiers as "hired killers." your use of the phrase just shows how very little you actually know about the military, civic militarism and the military's place in western society. no one is asking for boot lapping but not respecting people who are willing to lay it all down on the line for people who aren't brave, noble or strong enough to do the same is the height of ignorance. you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourself.

[Yojimbo]

The civilian populace at large should be thankful that improved technology, changes in legislation, and most importantly of all - people volunteer for service so we don't have to. Again, in total agreement. Folks like Mike and SRP have my deepest gratitude for volunteering to risk their asses. I say so not only because they are protecting our country, but also because admittedly I don't in my middle age have the desire - or the nuts and discipline- to leave my home, wife, family and flushing toilets and other domestic conveniences to face a bunch of psuedo-jihadists and lunatic true believers bent on doing me great bodily harm. And what if Mike and SRP and our other veteran brothers and sisters did not choose to volunteer to serve? Our respective governments would still feel a need for millitary response, and I venture to guess that a full scale draft would be inevitably be instituted, at which time I am certain that regular civilians like myself would be required to serve. So because of the sacrifices which these volunteers are willing to make, I get to sleep in a warm bed next to my wife every night rather than having to risk getting blown up or shot. (Well, I live in Los Angeles which is not necessarily a violence/bullet free environment but by no stretch of the imagination is it Darfur or Kandahar) So Mike and SRP, and to all veterans, I again would like to personally thank you for affording me the opportunity to continue my uneventful life as a civilian. Your sacrifices make my life as a civilian possible, and whether or not I agree with the political rhetoric that has our nation involved in our current conflicts does not change the fact that I and my fellow civilians owe you a big-ass debt and our highest respect.

[SymphonicX]

nice how you qualify this post of yours with a nod to WWII and WWI vets - does that make you feel better? i am always amused by loud mouthed, pussy ass motherfuckers who run off behind the freedoms and civil liberties that others choose to risk their lives to guarantee. i take serious fucking exception to the notion of soldiers as "hired killers." your use of the phrase just shows how very little you actually know about the military, civic militarism and the military's place in western society. no one is asking for boot lapping but not respecting people who are willing to lay it all down on the line for people who aren't brave, noble or strong enough to do the same is the height of ignorance. you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourself. Bah...I'd say the same to you my friend but as I said, I don't go out of my way to offend and have also mentioned that yeah, your opinion and views are cool by me. However...if someone pays me to fire a weapon at someone, I'm a hired killer. That may nark you a little bit, but there you go. I love how you qualify me as ignorant but offer absolutely no contrasting views on why I should see it any other way. Simply claiming I don't know enough about a subject whilst skillfully avoiding actually making a point on the subject is a bit of a shit diversionary tactic. hey man, good luck with your military career - I wish you all the safety in the world...as I said though, I don't agree with the choice of career and I don't agree with this notion that you're somehow this invincible God that holds some sort of moral highground above me because I haven't bothered to confuse the notion of patriotism with war. It just isn't happening. I guess part of me should also throw similar viewpoints at any opposing side - those who oppress, fascists etc...they are obviously the problem - and I already said the military is simply a necessary evil - my exact quote - doesn't make it any less evil in my eyes - think of it like putting white tigers into captivity, just because they're poachers threatening them doesn't make the idea of keeping these animals in captivity any more palatable. Although I guess if you apply this notion to the police, you still get a necessary evil. There seems to be this habit of people worshipping the ground soldiers walk on. You seem to think you instantly deserve this respect and admiration - but i hate to use your own words against you but that's exactly the reason you believe you've been fighting for...to give people the chance to criticise - and yeah, I'm here to offer an alternative view on soldier worship, the bottom line is you as a human being deserves respect for how you treat people, the language you use and the emotions you illicit with your words and actions - I believe police officers to be in exactly the same boat - you may have chose this career out of some noble sense of duty or want to make the world a better place, and whilst on the outside that's admirable, I still believe that you made that choice on your own back and none of these "civil liberties" that people like you like to use as a weapon when it suits you have been threatened, thereby causing you to tool up and go to war, have they? Do you even get a choice anyway? Or do they just ship you out wherever they feel like it to be shot at by illiterates? Bottom line is though, you as a person dictates your own change in the world, not your career choice in a world of military profit and weapons contracts. You've made yourself a small cog in a big, dangerous clock. And no, there is no respect from me - sorry. But as I said, I wish anyone safety in this career choice, but at the end of the day I just distance myself from anyone who puts themselves and their families through this mainly for political or economic wars. I truly apologise for offending you - as i said it's not my intention - I give you all the respect in the world for being on this board and challenging someone you disagree with - it is indeed something you believe you've put yourself in the line of fire for, and I understand someone seeming to arbitrarily attack that can be seen as offensive and badly placed - so I do apologise, but I'm not changing my opinion on military forces. Cheers