TWD 5x13 "Forget" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[Publius]

Buttons!! Noooooooo!!!!! mendoza_347.jpg

[AcesandEights]

So Aaron and Daryl had one hell of a... Shared moment. I think Kirkman doth protest too much.

[Wyldwraith]

Problems I see with Alexandria are PROFOUND: 1) Disarming the citizenry. The Zombie Apocalypse being the Zombie Apocalypse, sooner or later a significant breach by a significant # of Walkers is bound to occur. It's easy to say "We have a centralized Armory, we'll dispense firearms as needed." Yet in the chaos of Walkers bearing people to the ground, blood geysering as the victims scream their lives away, panic would be endemic. Also, by de-acclimating the citizenry to firearms on a daily basis, said citizenry would be nothing but panicked sheep in a crisis, leaving the defense to all-too-few like Rick, Michonne and Daryl. 2) This is THE PROBLEM really: Alexandria is another attempt to wall out reality and return to a pre-zombie apocalypse footing. Such attempts will continue to fail so long as substantial numbers of Walkers remain ambulatory, and substantial numbers of surviving humans behave like the Claimers, the Terminians, and whoever breached Noah's home community. Any successful restart of "civilization" MUST (and I don't use absolutist terms like "must" lightly) INCORPORATE the reality of the Zombie Apocalypse, and not simply try to create systematic logistics meant to neatly divide "Walker Infested Badlands/Ruins of Former Civilization" from "Cordoned-off area wherein humans return to pre-Zombie Apocalypse lifestyles. Trying to create such a division is an INCREDIBLE TEMPTATION, absolutely. These people have been living like sentient RATS to put it bluntly. Scavenging, scurrying away from danger, claiming territory when strong and when their #'s are high for immediate use (much like a rats' warren). OF COURSE a return to running water, electricity and sleeping on mattresses covered by decent-threadcount sheets with fluffy pillows...and not SEEMING as if one has to worry about being eaten or killed for your supplies at any moment sounds like Heaven to people who've been what ALL those Survivors have been through, not just Team Rick. The problem is that attempting to compartmentalize the apocalypse to allow for a facsimile of pre-Apocalypse life leads the population into patterns of behavior incompatible with long-term survival in said Apocalypse. THE Prime Example being the Mayor putting Rick and Michonne in police uniforms, and charging them and only a small minority with community defense. How's that a problem, you might ask? Ok, let's say that the group which demolished Noah's home community finds their way to Alexandria. To man the wall surrounding the town versus a HUMAN threat would take sentries positioned no further apart than the distance where out of (for example) three sentries, all three can see each other. Team Rick and the Terminians both demonstrated that homemade silencers aren't truly difficult to fashion (good for at least a couple shots anyway). Any less sentry density and all it would take is two raiders with rifles + said homemade silencers picking a nice place of concealment, each one takes aim at a different sentry, they count down 3-2-1 and boom. Both sentries dead and no one on watch immediately aware of what just happened. In the time it takes the other Alexandrian sentries to realize what's happened, any # of raiders could already be over the patch of now-unguarded wall. Now you've got potentially 7-10 heavily armed psychopaths running around Alexandria AT NIGHT. So how many people PER SHIFT would it take JUST to maintain effective anti-human defense of the town Wall's perimeter? A few DOZEN? It's unworkable. The whole town would be nothing but sentry-shifts, and nothing else getting done. Are there much more effective and EFFICIENT means of guarding a walled Perimeter? Absolutely. But Alexandria is so complacent that the church belltower is only "occasionally" occupied...and the Mayor is playing politics with Sasha, who offered to man said tower on lookout as much as she's physically able. And that's it right there. Allowing the majority of the populace to feel safe from the Apocalypse in a practical day-to-day sense will create a similar sort of complacency as the far larger complacency that allowed Walkers to overrun the world IN THE FIRST PLACE. So what's the alternative then? Create a society that EMBRACES REALITY, instead of trying to shut it out and forget about it. I read a short-story in the Fiction Section of this site that really stuck with me. It described a community where dozens of well-trained Survivors dedicate themselves to luring dozens of zombies at a time away from the human settlement where the women of childbearing age, the children, the old and the infirm live. Said "Scouts" are all about systematically terminating zombies in ways that use the zombies weaknesses against them, while not consuming resources. An example being luring a pursuing herd to a nice sturdy tree, climbing up into a safe vantage, and them systematically stabbing them in the heads one by one with a SPEAR until they're all destroyed. With at first dozens, and later hundreds of such operatives working outside the community, they ever so slowly begin to turn the force of attrition in favor of humanity, while all the while keeping the home base where new "soldiers" are being bred and trained safe, allowing for a steadily-increasing pool of "soldiers" working outside the community over time. I'm NOT saying that this system exactly is what the Survivors in TWD universe should do...but the system I just described has the major advantage of having been designed to CONFRONT AND (eventually) ULTIMATELY RESOLVE the reality of the zombie apocalypse as opposed to trying to just hide from it. Put another way: Why do the tactics the humans used in Night of the Living Dead always fail? It's not just because of humans fighting amongst themselves, that just hastened their deaths. It's because such a defense allows the undead to bring their few strengths to bear against human weaknesses. They can relentlessly tear boards off windows and doors because we either run out of usable wood, nails to secure said wood in place...or ultimately (even if we had infinite supplies of both) because they can keep battering away at the structure seeking entry, while humans have to rest. So how do you survive? You flip the script, and do what the Barbara from the Night Remake did. You take action that puts human strengths up against the zombies weaknesses. At its most basic, any community with any long-term future in TWD universe is going to be one that embraces this principle, coupled with an effective system for 1) Warding off complacency and 2) Also maintaining an anti-human defense so strong that it deters raiders just as soon as they give the place a first look. Two people in cop uniforms and 3-4 volunteers wandering the top of Alexandria's wall with rifles does none of these things. Edit: For those interested, the story I referenced from the Fiction Section is titled A Day In The Life Of... It's on Page 4, Living Dead, Story 158.

[Neil]

^ a+

[AcesandEights]

Excellent insights and summation, Wyld!

[Wyldwraith]

Thanks guys, Maybe one can call it nitpicking (I'm not gonna make that call) but...personally, I'm getting TIRED of these "Pre-Apocalypse Pattern Civilization Reboot-Attempts" in TWD. Just how many times do the walls have to come down, 50+% of the population get eaten/shot, and the remaining 49% (or less) which survives get wildly dispersed for these people to realize Walls + A tiny minority of your population working as Security will ALWAYS = (Eventually) Walls down, over half the population dead, and the rest scattered with the clothes on their back and the gear in their hands? I mean C'MON, humanity took the #1 rung on the evolutionary ladder because we were the MOST ADAPTABLE species, NOT the STRONGEST. The message forming and beginning to permeate every particle of TWD is "Ignore every instance of human history wherein humanity successfully changed lifestyles to adapt to a radically altered environment, build or co-opt pre-existing walls and hide behind them with dwindling non-renewable stockpiles of firearms and ammunition." That is NOT a plan for humanity's survival. That's not even a plan for a lone community's survival. It's a simplistic fear-driven refusal to look at the reality of their situation and change their behavior in such a way so as to afford themselves opportunities to begin building up to re-taking control of the environment around them. Here's the absolute coup de grace of my argument. Let's say I'm COMPLETELY WRONG, and a) The walls NEVER FALL, b) No sizable or halfway competent group of human raiders EVER show up to contest Alexandria's claim to their resources, and c) Every single plan and activity Alexandria currently has in the works succeeds beyond anyone's wildest expectations. Know what you get? 3-5 years from now, and 12-15 mega-herds capable of toppling the walls by sheer body mass if not neutralized later, you have a community out of bullets and waiting for Mega Herd #13, 14, 15 or 16 to show up and THEN topple the walls and eat everyone, because no one in Alexandria has any significant means of disposing of hundreds of Walkers at a time that DOESN'T involve burning through ammunition as if its a never-ending resource like grains of sand on the beach. The Prison fences looked really nice when there were only 3-5 Walkers at any given time pushing on a given 25-foot cross-section of fencing too. Not so much when Walker density reached maximum saturation PLUS 5 rows deep more just waiting for their turn at the fence. Even had the fences supernaturally held, I submit that the lengths of METAL REBAR, along with every OTHER melee weapon in the Prison would've worn out, and there would STILL have been Walkers 5 rows deep at the fence. Might've taken years, but Walkers aren't rotting and they aren't getting bored. Again, it's simply a bigger version of "Board up the NotLD-house and hope for the best."

[shootemindehead]

Not disagreeing with what you've said there, but we have to remember that it took humans a long, long time to climb to the top of the food chain and we're just a year and a half, or whatever, into the zombie apocalypse. So, it's really only the baby steps yet. But, regarding civvie rebooting, I reckon there'd be a LOT of that going on in small enclaves after an...um..."extinction event" like this. There would be too many people wanting to "get back to the way things were" an unable to adapt to the way things are. I certainly agree that the "no guns" policy of Alexandria is a bit silly, considering what lays outside and even if this particular group has had an extremely easy ride that, in fairness, has seriously clouded their judgement, I simply cannot see a "no guns" policy being in effect in any kind of zombie apocalypse village. Common sense, alone, would dictate the need to be on ones guard at all times. They don't even post lookouts? Something not right there. But we've just entered Alexandria and haven't seen anything substantial of it yet. Maybe there's a valid reason why the boss girl has restricted there use. There might have been an insurrection attempt of some sort before, resulting in the near overthrow of the place, who knows. She has mentioned expelling people to the outside that "didn't work out". But, I really hope the show addresses that in some way. Otherwise, it's simply down to bad writing again. Lastly, regarding "walls coming down", unfortunately that's simply a zombie trope that one has to get on with if we're to enjoy this genre. Eventually the walls have to come down by some means, otherwise, it's happy ever after, or as about as happy ever after as one could get in that kind of world. And that's the end of the show...

[Buzzbomb]

Keeping the guns under central control would help ration the use of ammunition & prevent the kind of damage that could occur if one of the residents couldn't take it anymore & decided to go on a killing spree... probably an unlikely scenario, but I'd image suicide rates might increase in a post apocalyptic world where you're living in a goldfish bowl. I agree with Wyld's comments, but remember this is a drama TV show, so survivors behaving rationally & making sensible choices is not (unfortunately) likely to happen... It would be nice to see the humans start taking control.

[Publius]

Problems I see with Alexandria are PROFOUND: 1) Disarming the citizenry. The Zombie Apocalypse being the Zombie Apocalypse, sooner or later a significant breach by a significant # of Walkers is bound to occur. It's easy to say "We have a centralized Armory, we'll dispense firearms as needed." Yet in the chaos of Walkers bearing people to the ground, blood geysering as the victims scream their lives away, panic would be endemic. Also, by de-acclimating the citizenry to firearms on a daily basis, said citizenry would be nothing but panicked sheep in a crisis, leaving the defense to all-too-few like Rick, Michonne and Daryl. Yes, I complained about this in last episode's thread. I can see a community foolishly adopting a rule like this--especially one headed by a pre-outbreak politician. But I can't see Rick's group placidly accepting a rule like this. Like you observed, they KNOW better, from repeated experience.

[MinionZombie]

Yes, I complained about this in last episode's thread. I can see a community foolishly adopting a rule like this--especially one headed by a pre-outbreak politician. But I can't see Rick's group placidly accepting a rule like this. Like you observed, they KNOW better, from repeated experience. And I'd imagine that things will soon change ... we've only just got to Alexandria, after all. Plus there are people in all walks of life who make foolish or unwise decisions for all sorts of reasons - every day we see people on the news, in viral videos, on social media, at work, etc etc etc, doing stupid things without realising it, or blundering forth with a plan of action that they firmly believe to be right when some of those around them disagree. How often do you sit there in front of the TV effin' and jeffin' over some bone-headed action by a celebrity or politician who should really know better? All the ruddy time, that's how often. It'd be completely unrealistic for everyone to make the perfect decision at all times as events are unfolding around them in real time. Even renowned tacticians make mistakes. Alexandria's had a soft time of it out of a conflation of lucky circumstances and have witnessed very little of the reality of how things have changed beyond their walls (while, by comparison, Rick's group have had a torturous amount of bad luck) - but guaranteed that luck isn't going to last much longer. I'd say by season's end something is going to go - or start going - arse over tit.

[Wyldwraith]

See I have a hard time with putting it down to luck at this point, Luck lets you walk down a suburban street and run into a man and his son before a Walker. It DOESN'T keep an idiot alive for 18+ months. Nature has never suffered fools gladly, and that was BEFORE armies of ambulatory corpses with a taste for human flesh were roaming about. Alexandria has been steadily recruiting from outside, so it's not just a cluster of luckily cloistered and undisturbed people who have so far hid out from the zombie apocalypse. A significant % of its population have been "Out There" and knows whats up, else they wouldn't have survived long enough to meet an Alexandrian recruiter. Remember the hippie couple Rick & Carol ran into? That's an example of people riding a wave of luck to stay alive...and what happened to them? Answer: Their luck ran out. People like the hippie couple don't live long enough to find a place like Alexandria...or be found by someone from there. And yes, I get the whole "It's a dramatic TV show, walls have to come down or it gets boring etc etc" argument. I'm just saying that a trope is not some kind of Absolute Cinematic Law like gravity. Tropes can change if you get enough creative people with the guts to do something different making successes of a certain # of projects they're a part of. TWD is an excellent opportunity to begin breaking away from the "Fort Up and Wait It Out" mentality endemic to the zombie genre.

[facestabber]

In regards to Alexandria, it is beyond flawed. Wyld has pointed it out extremely well. Where I find peace with the story is by diving into Michonne's mind and statements. Michonne seemed to have reached a point where surviving just to survive was no longer sustainable( "We need this, and we're going"). Her katana wielding, walker decapitating badassery makes for a great show for us audience members to watch but Michonne is worn out. I think what she was saying is that she has reached a point where she is willing to trade in some security for a chance to live a little bit. Laugh. Smile. Inside she fully acknowledges that her defenses are down and if she does fall victim, so be it. At least she tried to find some happiness. I can relate to that. Being on guard 24/7 and struggling day to day just to live can be a burden. Make no mistake about it our group of survivors have wanted to live and hence they are still around. The question is at what cost are you willing to sacrifice to live?

[shootemindehead]

And yes, I get the whole "It's a dramatic TV show, walls have to come down or it gets boring etc etc" argument. I'm just saying that a trope is not some kind of Absolute Cinematic Law like gravity. Tropes can change if you get enough creative people with the guts to do something different making successes of a certain # of projects they're a part of. TWD is an excellent opportunity to begin breaking away from the "Fort Up and Wait It Out" mentality endemic to the zombie genre. But, in what way though? Something has to facilitate the "walking away" from a specific enclave, otherwise, as I said earlier, the show sort of ends. Plus the eventual victory of the dead (directly or by proxy) over any human camp or fortification is essential to the zombie genre itself. It's entirely indicative of their unrelenting and unstoppable nature, no? Without the collapse of a given fort, the situation remains in stasis and that wouldn't really make for an entertaining show. I've always thought it was one of the most chilling aspects of Romero's universe that his films end with the dead victorious, even if they utterly lack the ability to comprehend that victory. They don't even know how they got there. They are a mindless, destructive, vehicle. It's the thing that makes something like a zombie apocalypse such an horrific scenario, in that there is no good ending to it. Humanity is buggered, no matter how hard we try. As far as luck is concerned though, there's no time limit there, or patterns. Some people are lucky at the right time, a lot of the time. Luck is completely random. Also, inevitably (as this is 'The Walking Dead') I think it's safe to say that luck is going to run out for the people Alexandria real soon.

[Publius]

But, in what way though? Something has to facilitate the "walking away" from a specific enclave, otherwise, as I said earlier, the show sort of ends. It's possible to imagine plenty of threats that could overwhelm any small community, no matter how well-prepared, without relying on contrived stupidity. Facestabber's rationalization makes a fair amount of sense, though.

[Wyldwraith]

That's the thing though, I'm not saying that a walled enclave in and of itself is a bad thing. I'm just saying that an experienced survivor of a zombie apocalypse, who has been through more than one Walls-Come-Down scenarios should know that a walled enclave is "Step 1" of building a survivable situation, it is not the end-all defense. There has to be some coming to grips with the fact the zombies are out there, and something has to be done about that. If they aren't going to rot, they're going to have to be destroyed, at least locally and in significant enough numbers so as to significantly depress the undead presence in the area surrounding your enclave. Steps along those lines: Ring Alexandria with pit traps, and have crews eliminate and empty said pits when they reach capacity. Snagging-type obstacles of the sort Morgan utilized in "Clear" would also be highly effective at breaking up the undead biomass and keep it from reaching the critical mass required to just roll over a wall. A wall is passive, what they need construction-wise aren't simply more walls (though I do support a second layer of wall ringing the first) they need construction that a) Breaks up a herd into significantly smaller units, and b) Assist in the elimination of significant #'s of Walkers without the use of bullets. I have NEVER accepted that the Inevitable Undead Victory is an absolutely necessary component of the genre. Just like slasher films have their heroine (and sometimes hero)...there must be room for the survivors who "get it right" to be shown as reaping the harvest of continued survival that their actions warrant. Not in a happily-ever-after sense, but in a "For now, but the struggle continues" sense. Romero chose to highlight the endemic fractiousness of humanity, especially in crisis situations...and because he succeeded many have come to believe that EVERY survivor group in every zombie apocalypse depicted must invariably bring about their own destruction by infighting, exceedingly poor judgment and very shortsighted decision-making. Yes, there has to be an engine providing impetus to prevent the story from essentially ending due to stasis. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that humanity must invariably lose to the undead in order to prevent that stasis. The short story I pointed out in the Fiction Archive ("A Day In The Life Of..." on Page 4) isn't a static model. It has strong elements of repetition, but so do zombies bashing against impediments until they eventually collapse. I guess one of the core things I'm trying to say is that zombies are relentless simply by nature of what they are, yet humans CAN CHOOSE to adopt their own kind of relentlessness where it pertains to survival. No, a tiny # of humans conclusively triumphant over the undead is neither realistic or feasible plot-wise, but humanity essentially playing the undead to a tension-riddled and always-going-to-be-tested "draw" CAN WORK. Think of it this way, in the current locked-in Romero model of the zombie apocalypse, humans surviving is never, and can never be anything but delaying the inevitable...and then mainly only for a short while. Is that truly the uttermost limit of the genre? Is there absolutely nothing more to be done than re-depict the tiny handful of humanity versus the zombie horde fighting for day-to-day survival until such time as they ALWAYS slip up and perish? There's absolutely no room for evolution of the storytelling model therein? I have an enormous amount of difficulty believing that the Romero Model, as seminal and outstanding as it was (and remains in some ways) describes in its all-encompassing totality all effective storytelling in the zombie genre. Am I the guy whose going to invent the breakout solution that proves my belief true? Probably not. Yet my deficiencies as a would-be scriptwriter do not automatically invalidate the theory that there ARE other creative avenues/outcomes to pursue beyond continuing to bludgeon audiences with the same tired message about us being our own worst enemies, and the inescapable nature of the grave as symbolized by zombie-kind.