Why we fight; also a reason for the usage of high-yield nuclear weapons

[EvilNed]

Thank you for proving my point. I know you probably think that was a rather smart comment, offering no explanation and just retorting with an arrogant "Thank you for proving my point". Of course, this tells me that you're not quite used to arguing at all. In any debate, you just don't go up and respond with that kind of smartass reply unless you've got a valid point to prove. Now, before you reply with something along the lines of "Yeah, well your mom is fat." I'd like to ask you what exactly your point is. A key to succesfull arguing is making sure your opponents know what your point is, so please clarify. Any reply coming from you just insults the opposing posters views. It seems that's all you can do. Don't try to act as if you know what you're talking about: You don't.

[thxleo]

I know you probably think that was a rather smart comment, offering no explanation and just retorting with an arrogant "Thank you for proving my point". Of course, this tells me that you're not quite used to arguing at all. In any debate, you just don't go up and respond with that kind of smartass reply unless you've got a valid point to prove. Now, before you reply with something along the lines of "Yeah, well your mom is fat." I'd like to ask you what exactly your point is. A key to succesfull arguing is making sure your opponents know what your point is, so please clarify. Any reply coming from you just insults the opposing posters views. It seems that's all you can do. Don't try to act as if you know what you're talking about: You don't. My point was stated in my original post. Loud and clear. Perhaps you should go back and read it. You stated that you are against the U.S. Do I need to know anything else about you and your politics? That says it all I think. I'll say this. One thing that makes me laugh about liberals, like you for example, is how hypocritical you are. You are known for being "open minded" and "tolerant of others"...EXCEPT those that don't believe the way you do. Then the gloves come off.

[Mike70]

My point was stated in my original post. Loud and clear. Perhaps you should go back and read it. You stated that you are against the U.S. Do I need to know anything else about you and your politics? That says it all I think. I'll say this. One thing that makes me laugh about liberals, like you for example, is how hypocritical you are. You are known for being "open minded" and "tolerant of others"...EXCEPT those that don't believe the way you do. Then the gloves come off. and what point would that be exactly? you have stated nothing in the way of facts, experiences, or any rational arguement to back up your position. the only thing you have done is accuse others, who don't agree with your twisted and warped view point of being followers of ward churchill, michael moore, etc., called people bleeding hearts and referred to other people as animals. then you haul out the liberal tag. i am open minded and tolerant. i think these posts have proved that. since your grasp of english seems to be a bit faulty, i believe what evilned said was that he was against us politics. evilned is a us citizen, like we are, he entitled to an informed opinion about the dangerous, destructive path our country is on. he certainly doesn't need me to defend him but i have to point out the way you are trying to twist words around to fit your own uses. much like in the above post where you ignore my reasoned comments on your position and focus in on the words little boys. this is a hallmark of bad debate and fallacious arguement. my position has been taken apart, so i'll focus in the only thing i have left. and for arcades feeling that he has an upper hand in this, he must be living in a colon based reality. his position has been utterly demolished in this thread (if you could even call it a position) since he has offered nothing in the way of reasoned arguement or evidence either. he has only stomped his feet about "atrocities", "savagery", and that the US torturing other humans is somehow different than other people torturing americans. you have been destroyed in this arguement and you would both do well to take the few shreds of dignity you might have left and retire from the field. because i can guarantee you this: evilned and i are out of your league completely. neither of you have he intellectual ability nor the maturity to debate us in any way. i can't speak for evilned on this point but i will assure you that i am far better educated, have far more life experience and have a zillion times more experience at this sort of thing than you do. there used to be a guy on here called grimstories. he and i would engage in some epic battles. he was a worthy opponent. you are not. you see, even though i disagreed with tom about damn near every word he said, he had some intellect and life experiences behind his comments. i respected the man, even though i didn't like him as a person. i cannot say the same about you.

[thxleo]

i called you a little boy because the mentality that you and others are employing is childish in the extreme and betrays a complete lack of understanding of the central issue here. i don't care if the actions that US soldiers have taken "pale in comparison" to the insurgents. as for your "and you know it" comment i reject this in its entirety because as i have said before torture and murder are torture and murder- period. doesn't matter who does it. it is utterly wrong. the point the others and i are trying to make is that US soldiers should never take those actions. murder is murder - period. no matter who it is done by. i see nothing in your post that offers any proof of arguement at all. nothing. you simply cannot respond logically to our arguements with out bringing out the "far left mentality" tag. nowhere in my posts have i referred to the far right or conservatives nor have i labeled any one as such. you see, unlike you i understand that not all conservatives are warmongerers nor do i feel that the conservative "mentality" is invalid simply because i choose not to agree with it. as for being fantastic at name calling i would refer you back to one of your previous posts where you referred to several of us being supporters of ward churchill, michael moore and the dixie chicks. i do recall that you used the words "bleeding hearts" as well. now who is throwing the names around? if you act like a foolish child, expect to be called and treated like one. to me you are a little boy - no name calling intended. it is simply how i view both you and arcades. silly little kids safe behind a computer spouting off about things you have absolutely no idea about. if the name fits wear it. so when are you going to enlist? When am I going to enlist? I can't. When I graduated from high school at 17 I was going to join the Air Force. I had spent three years in ROTC and was going to go in as an E3. I was awarded Distinguished Cadet my sophomore year and Class Leader my junior year. I went to a week long mini boot camp at Parris Island, South Caroina between those two years. I had every intention of being in the military for most of my life. My father was a Green Beret and I had 4 uncles who served in VietNam, one of whom was killed in action(his name is on the wall in Washington, D.C.). I also have migraine headaches. I've had them since I was 5 years old. At the time I was taking regular medication for them. I was told that because of that, I could not join. I would be a liability in the field was what I was told. Not too long after that, about a year, I got into trouble with the law. Serious trouble. So that sealed any chances of my getting in the military for good. That's why I can't enlist...since you asked so nicely.

[MapMan]

i can't speak for evilned on this point but i will assure you that i am far better educated, have far more life experience and have a zillion times more experience at this sort of thing than you do. A zillion? The term has no well defined mathematical meaning. What MOS were you ?

[thxleo]

and what point would that be exactly? you have stated nothing in the way of facts, experiences, or any rational arguement to back up your position. the only thing you have done is accuse others, who don't agree with your twisted and warped view point of being followers of ward churchill, michael moore, etc., called people bleeding hearts and referred to other people as animals. then you haul out the liberal tag. i am open minded and tolerant. i think these posts have proved that. since your grasp of english seems to be a bit faulty, i believe what evilned said was that he was against us politics. evilned is a us citizen, like we are, he entitled to an informed opinion about the dangerous, destructive path our country is on. he certainly doesn't need me to defend him but i have to point out the way you are trying to twist words around to fit your own uses. much like in the above post where you ignore my reasoned comments on your position and focus in on the words little boys. this is a hallmark of bad debate and fallacious arguement. my position has been taken apart, so i'll focus in the only thing i have left. and for arcades feeling that he has an upper hand in this, he must be living in a colon based reality. his position has been utterly demolished in this thread (if you could even call it a position) since he has offered nothing in the way of reasoned arguement or evidence either. he has only stomped his feet about "atrocities", "savagery", and that the US torturing other humans is somehow different than other people torturing americans. you have been destroyed in this arguement and you would both do well to take the few shreds of dignity you might have left and retire from the field. because i can guarantee you this: evilned and i are out of your league completely. neither of you have he intellectual ability nor the maturity to debate us in any way. i can't speak for evilned on this point but i will assure you that i am far better educated, have far more life experience and have a zillion times more experience at this sort of thing than you do. there used to be a guy on here called grimstories. he and i would engage in some epic battles. he was a worthy opponent. you are not. you see, even though i disagreed with tom about damn near every word he said, he had some intellect and life experiences behind his comments. i respected the man, even though i didn't like him as a person. i cannot say the same about you. I've been destroyed in this arguement? Did you type that with a straight face Darth? You and "Evilned" are out of my league? God I would hope so. And my english is not faulty. "Evilned" stated he was against the U.S. How am I twisting that? Your entire post above is funny as hell. Thank you.

[Mike70]

A zillion? The term has no well defined mathematical meaning. What MOS were you ? how bout a googleplex then. math has never been my strong point MOS 11B if you don't know what 11B is just reply. don't want to insult your intel if you do by telling you something you already know. I've been destroyed in this arguement? Did you type that with a straight face Darth? You and "Evilned" are out of my league? God I would hope so. And my english is not faulty. "Evilned" stated he was against the U.S. How am I twisting that? Your entire post above is funny as hell. Thank you. man you have to take the prize as least mature board member. yes you have been destroyed. i am out of your league intellectually and in terms of maturity. you know nothing about how to debate or argue a point. again you have said nothing at all.

[MapMan]

MOS 11B Who were you with in Somolia ?

[Mike70]

Who were you with in Somolia ? HHC 10th mtn div g3 operations. i was in the army from april 91 to july 94. fort drum, ny. i was in somalia from 11 dec 92 to 6 may 93. stationed at what used to be the us embassy compound in mogadishu, which was right across from what used to be the university.

[Arcades057]

As soon as someone starts talking about how smart they are, you know they really ARE that smart. Debating is not constantly challenging the intelligence and spelling of someone else, Scipio, it's actually using facts to back an argument. You are using your own personal experiences to back your claims that all torture is equal; I am pointing out the difference between being dismembered and being photographed naked. Again you miss that point. Because someone is or was with the military does not mean that that individual has an intimate knowledge about the military. Because I worked for Subway does not mean that I can tell you everything about it. You claim that the gubbment is behind the torturel show proof. I don't mean an article in the news where those on trial claim it, I mean proof positive, like the WMDs we found in Iraq, like the soldiers' dismembered bodies being found. And Ned DID say he was against the US, remember? While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR. It's good to have a view on a subject that you know about. It's even better to respect the views of others and not resort to childish namecalling and "I'msmarter than you are." Besides, my dad was a Vietnam veteran and he could beat up yours.

[EvilNed]

My point was stated in my original post. Loud and clear. Perhaps you should go back and read it. You stated that you are against the U.S. Do I need to know anything else about you and your politics? That says it all I think. I'll say this. One thing that makes me laugh about liberals, like you for example, is how hypocritical you are. You are known for being "open minded" and "tolerant of others"...EXCEPT those that don't believe the way you do. Then the gloves come off. You stated your post in your original post? Then it shouldn't be too hard to voice it once again, would it. If "Thanks for proving my point." is the best you've got to offer, then I guess I shouldn't feel that threathened by your argumentative skills. I stated that I'm against the U.S politics, yes? So? I assume you were brought up in a very patriotic family and am having trouble thinking outside the box, which is why you keep attacking me. You speak of hypocritics, and yet you're the most aggressive one here. Now that's being hypocritical! Why don't you tell me what your point was? I mean, it was YOU who brought it up. Why don't you tell me why me being against U.S. politics says it all? Once again, YOU brought it up. EDIT: Also, I would very much like you to quote me on where I said I was AGAINST THE US... I have no recollection of making such a statement. I would also like to point out to Arcades that the psychological and physical torture conducted on iraqi prisoners (and innocents at Gautemala) goes way beyond just being photographed naked. They are molested, often quite harshly, 24/7 in various ways. They aren't being put in Iron Maidens, but psychological torture is as bad as physical.

[Arcades057]

EvilNed, I believe I highlighted the area where you said you were against the US. Here it is again... While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR. The bold is the pertinent parts. If that's not what you meant, perhaps it was a gaffe on your part, but I find that hard to believe, seeing as how you'd have had to read it before you sent the post. Beings against the politics of a country I can understand; I'm not all for the limp-wristed strategy we're taking in Iraq for one, and the border issue is a joke, but I have nothing but respect and admiration for my country. I would also like to point out to Arcades that the psychological and physical torture conducted on iraqi prisoners (and innocents at Gautemala) goes way beyond just being photographed naked. They are molested, often quite harshly, 24/7 in various ways. They aren't being put in Iron Maidens, but psychological torture is as bad as physical. It's Guantanamo, Cuba (just being a fact Nazi, please forgive me! ) And the only evidence we have to support that torture is being perpetrated is the claims of the detainees. Remember, these detainees are suspected terrorists, not some poor schmo on his way to Mecca, as some of them say. How many people in prisons in America actually say "I did it"? You'd be hard pressed to find one man in prison in the US guilty on his own word. We expect the terrorists to be straightforward? You can't admit the possibility that this just might be a tactic to further damage the credibility of the US? They can't beat us in a war, so what does that leave them?

[EvilNed]

EvilNed, I believe I highlighted the area where you said you were against the US. Here it is again... It's Guantanamo, Cuba (just being a fact Nazi, please forgive me! ) And the only evidence we have to support that torture is being perpetrated is the claims of the detainees. Remember, these detainees are suspected terrorists, not some poor schmo on his way to Mecca, as some of them say. How many people in prisons in America actually say "I did it"? You'd be hard pressed to find one man in prison in the US guilty on his own word. We expect the terrorists to be straightforward? You can't admit the possibility that this just might be a tactic to further damage the credibility of the US? They can't beat us in a war, so what does that leave them? If one read the sentence through, it's clear I am against US policy. And yes, I despise it, as anyone with an interest in the wellfare of the common human being should. I don't just despise the republican, but the democrats for wanting to pull out of Iraq and just leave behind the complete and utter mess that they have created. US politics, I am against. The US? No. I explained in another post that there's nothing wrong with the US ideals or people. There was a Swede, with arab roots, who was at Guantanamo. Do you know why he was there? Becuase he was related to a suspected terrorist. He was tortured and interrogated, yet never given a trial. Infact, none of these are. They are merely suspected to being terrorists. I don't know about you, but that seems pretty bull**** to me. As for your last statement, ever hear of Vietnam?

[thxleo]

It's good for me to find common ground with people that I usually argue with. Thxleo, it always surprised me how alike our politics are, but how much we argue on everything else. Funny isn't it? You stated your post in your original post? Then it shouldn't be too hard to voice it once again, would it. If "Thanks for proving my point." is the best you've got to offer, then I guess I shouldn't feel that threathened by your argumentative skills. I stated that I'm against the U.S politics, yes? So? I assume you were brought up in a very patriotic family and am having trouble thinking outside the box, which is why you keep attacking me. You speak of hypocritics, and yet you're the most aggressive one here. Now that's being hypocritical! Why don't you tell me what your point was? I mean, it was YOU who brought it up. Why don't you tell me why me being against U.S. politics says it all? Once again, YOU brought it up. EDIT: Also, I would very much like you to quote me on where I said I was AGAINST THE US... I have no recollection of making such a statement. I would also like to point out to Arcades that the psychological and physical torture conducted on iraqi prisoners (and innocents at Gautemala) goes way beyond just being photographed naked. They are molested, often quite harshly, 24/7 in various ways. They aren't being put in Iron Maidens, but psychological torture is as bad as physical. Since you are deaf, here it is again... WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS THEM! Even though you, and people who think like you, say we are and that we do just as many bad things. That is simply bull****. I posted a link with pictures of Nick Berg's body as an example. Are you gonna reply asking me what my point is again?

[EvilNed]

Since you are deaf, here it is again... WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS THEM! Even though you, and people who think like you, say we are and that we do just as many bad things. Is it just me, or did your argument loose all your credibility right there? Guess someone hasn't been paying attention...