TWD 2x10 "18 Miles Out" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[krisvds]

"I really don't see Shane caring about the group. If he were in charge, in no time there wouldn't be much of a group left to defend."[/i] Doesn't the fact that Shane had the group encamped in a remote location, was doing everything he could to police actions that might draw Walkers to them (Like chastising Ed for building the fire too high because of the extra light it'd cast), and DIDN'T HAVE ANY of the "near-misses" that have become so common during Rick's "administration" sort of blow a hole in that argument at the water-line? Those people had been together since the napalming of Atlanta and seemed to be doing fine. I'll grant you that Rick has tried to be more proactive, but isn't that a reaction to the casualties/dangers brought about by his adhering to a much stricter moral code? (Honest question, not rhetorical.) Yeah, but that was the Shane who believed he'd probably never see Rick again in his whole life. Still, sooner or later walkers would have shown up at that camp, since it was so close to the city. Staying there wasn't all that smart either. Now, after Rick shows up he slowly starts cracking (attempted rape, pointing a gun at Rick in the woods, shooting Otis, ...). It's what makes him the character we love to hate/hate to love now. The way he's been behaving since Otis's death I wouldn't trust the man. For a former cop his moral code is deteriorating fast! Anyways, to me the series (both comic and tv) is about trying to maintain a certain degree of humanity amidst the chaos of the zombie apocalypse. Sure, the rules are changing. Survivalism is important. But I still think old Dale is right when he points out that ruthless self-preservation will be the groups undoing in the end as well. Not that Rick's morality doesn't get them in trouble either mind you. At times it's like a bleak comedy/ Tc Boyle novel

[Thorn]

Yeah I tend to avoid long threads, not all the time time mind you I love a good debate where it makes sense and at times i am overly wordy myself. But you tend to lose people when you try to cover too much ground especially if it is ground you have gone over before a lot of times. I prefer to just say we will never agree on Shane vs Rick when it comes to leadership instead of waiting EVERY episode to find a little nugget you (not anyone in particular) feel makes your point and then layering it on top of your old arguments dating back two seasons. At the end of the day we all have our opinions and unti ltheir is a smoking gun they are not likely to change and even if there IS (Shane throwing a wrench at Rick, Shane dumping a motorcycle on his friend risking maiming or killing him Rick coming back to save Shane... we can still justify these actions or minimize the ones that don't help our cause/point of view) So really... it is pointless and frustrating. As for the comics I thought you did not read the comics Wyld am I wrong in that? If not you really can not argue the comics in anyway as part of your "points" in fact you would be shocked to know in the comics certain things happen that bolster your arguments very well. They are two totally different universes based on the same mirror world where different tales unfold and that to makes the m each all the better.

[Ragnarr]

If you notice, Shane seems to be gradually losing his marbles starting from the first season up to the present. What some would call "the slow slide into madness". The excessive beating of the dude (whatsherfaces douchey husband) when the women were doing the laundry by the lakeside, Shane getting all twitchy when he had Rick in his gun sites, Shane losing it at the CDC not only with the attempted rape of Lori, but when he really freaked out on Jenner, then of course the Otis shooting and "Barn-megedon". I'd give it a few more episodes before he puts on his "yes, I'm insane" T-shirt and makes it obvious to all that either they need to kill him to survive themselves or banish him to go play checkers with Meryl somewhere far far away.

[Thorn]

If you notice, Shane seems to be gradually losing his marbles starting from the first season up to the present. What some would call "the slow slide into madness". The excessive beating of the dude (whatsherfaces douchey husband) when the women were doing the laundry by the lakeside, Shane getting all twitchy when he had Rick in his gun sites, Shane losing it at the CDC not only with the attempted rape of Lori, but when he really freaked out on Jenner, then of course the Otis shooting and "Barn-megedon". I'd give it a few more episodes before he puts on his "yes, I'm insane" T-shirt and makes it obvious to all that either they need to kill him to survive themselves or banish him to go play checkers with Meryl somewhere far far away. I agree 100% on that.

[babomb]

Something I haven't seen come up regarding this episode is when Rick pulls over to have his talk with Shane. 1st thing he says is that he heard about Shane killing Otis. He's not the least bit upset about it, and he even takes issue with the fact that Shane thinks that he wouldn't have been able to do it himself if he was the 1 there. He assures Shane that he will do whatever it takes to protect his family. The bottom line is that Rick himself agrees with Shanes decision to sacrifice Otis, believes he would've done the same thing, and doesn't like the fact that Shane doesn't think he could've done it. This flies in the face of most peoples belief in Ricks altruistic nature. During those past episode discussions, most people thought that sacrificing Otis like that would be absolutely unacceptable to Rick.

[AcesandEights]

This flies in the face of most peoples belief in Ricks altruistic nature. During those past episode discussions, most people thought that sacrificing Otis like that would be absolutely unacceptable to Rick. I actually still think it would have been unacceptable to Rick, as that's what would have been consistent with his character up to that point.

[Wyldwraith]

I'm confused, I've looked, but I can't find an instance of my even mentioning the comics as other than a reference to the trend that some here compare comics content with episode content. In any case, I appreciate what you're saying Thorn but really I'm just doing the same thing towards the Rick character after each episode as many do regarding the Shane character after each episode. One could just as easily say that the constant restating of the Shane-character's "sins" amounts to the same thing as "defending, justifying or minimizing" said sins. We pick apart and all but forensically analyze each episode frame-by-frame every week, it's tradition. Are there more reasonable potential outcomes to the featured circumstances? Of course. Just not within onscreen boundaries. I believe I've said this before, but if not, I genuinely respect the manner in which you frame your thoughts and articulate your opinions Thorn. Yes, we're always going to clash on the Optimism Vs. Pragmatism and Morality Vs. Expediency-related issues, but that's all in good fun. Isn't it? Both actors are portraying men that are slowly losing their minds due to unrelenting external pressures combined with their unforgiving expectations of themselves and each other. Rick only looks "good" with Shane as a foil. Without Shane, Rick would've put that very stylish .357 to his head and pulled the trigger after one of his returns as the conquering hero, only to find the wife and child about which he's fashioned his sense of self have become McGhoul Nuggets(tm). Without Rick, Shane..well, Shane wouldn't do much of anything because there'd be no messes for him to clean up. Maybe I do empathize with the Shane-character a bit too much,...and I DEFINITELY read personal perceptions into how said character is taking the fall over a woman's abdication of personal responsibility. It's an EXTREMELY true-to-life social dynamic, because I doubt there's a guy over 30 in North America who hasn't lost himself (to one extent or another) when he couldn't find a healthy way to accept he'd become entangled in a no-win situation of female design. Truly, for all the attention given to the admittedly 1st-Class representation of the Apocalypse, it's an interpersonal dynamic capable of evoking genuine emotion...and maybe that says something about me that I want so badly to see Shane come out the "winner" despite there being a dozen reasons+ to know that just isn't in the cards.

[AnxietyDilemma]

I'd give it a few more episodes before he puts on his "yes, I'm insane" T-shirt and makes it obvious to all that either they need to kill him to survive themselves or banish him to go play checkers with Meryl somewhere far far away. And people would still defend his actions. I prefer Rick, but I agree that many of Shane's choices are the right ones, it's just his approach as has been said. But beyond that, I think some people are really pushing it with their defense of Shane's questionable actions such as the attempted rape, having Rick in his crosshairs, throwing a wrench at Rick's head etc....I mean, the man is no saint. Say what you will about Rick's morality issues, but it's a bit ironic that the characteristics that Shane is trying to argue Rick into abandoning in order to adapt to the new rules, are the very issues that caused Rick to re-consider and come back for Shane and rescue him rather than just leave him behind.

[shootemindehead]

If you notice, Shane seems to be gradually losing his marbles starting from the first season up to the present. What some would call "the slow slide into madness". The excessive beating of the dude (whatsherfaces douchey husband) when the women were doing the laundry by the lakeside, Shane getting all twitchy when he had Rick in his gun sites, Shane losing it at the CDC not only with the attempted rape of Lori, but when he really freaked out on Jenner, then of course the Otis shooting and "Barn-megedon". I'd give it a few more episodes before he puts on his "yes, I'm insane" T-shirt and makes it obvious to all that either they need to kill him to survive themselves or banish him to go play checkers with Meryl somewhere far far away. Yeh, this is my take on in too.

[Wyldwraith]

Rick can be very inconsistent when it comes to crunch-time decisions, He needs a day or more to decide what to do about someone who shot at him and his, but can decide (albeit temporarily) to leave Shane behind after the two of them had argued and fought over Randall's fate? HOWEVER, I'll grant that this is by no means a cut-and-dried example, since there's nothing that DEFINITIVELY indicates Rick's decision in that instance and/or when and how he came to his decision (whatever it was) in that situation. As for Shane, I don't believe ANYONE here has tried to condone what Shane did to Lori at the CDC. At one point I stated my belief that Shane never intended to go as far as actual rape, but even then I (among others) was quick to condemn such behavior as barbaric and completely unacceptable. Violating a woman's personal space while making overtly suggestive statements and taking equally overt action is wrong, Wrong, WRONG! Engendering that sort of fear in a woman is damaging in so very many ways, and leaves in its wake emotional and psychological scarring that will NEVER disappear completely. Anyone who is or has been part of a life damaged in this way knows how corrosive the effects of such bestial behavior are on so many different aspects of the victim's life. HOWEVER, it's not a matter of blaming the victim to point out Lori has managed to COMPLETELY abdicate all responsibility for HER DECISION to become involved with Shane. It IS a fair question to ask if even half the screwed up things done by Shane would have happened if Lori hadn't used the UNRELATED issue of what Shane told her about Rick's fate as her justification for dumping all the responsibility on Shane. If good intentions matter so much, then they matter equally regardless of whose intentions they happen to be. We know from the flashback scene that Shane truly had every reason to believe EITHER a) Rick had just expired, and now he (Shane) needed to focus on getting Lori & Carl to safety as Rick would've wanted. Lori (and thus Carl) would have died either at the hospital or their home because of Lori's self-admitted declaration she wouldn't have left if there was the tiniest chance Rick was alive. What's more pivotal than whether or not the wife and son both men want survived? I can't speak for anyone else, but the way I see it many of Shane's misdeeds aren't simply a matter of Shane wanting Lori and Carl for himself. Those misdeeds have half their roots in the fact that Lori went beyond ending things with Shane into demanding he behave as if none of it ever happened. Being rejected sucks, but it's a part of life that well-balanced adults have to cope with on occasion. It's something else entirely to try and rewrite the past to suit yourself, when events in said past had true importance to someone else. A girl breaks up with you, you get bummed...you're not yourself for awhile, and maybe you punch a door or throw a pity party. But you can work through it. Force someone to BURY that deep a hurt/anger/resentment and it WILL find a means of expression. Only now the person who forced the burying of those emotions bears PART of the responsibility when something dysfunctional happens as a result. Lori didn't JUST dump the responsibility for her becoming involved with Shane all on him, she ALSO tied the dumping of that responsibility to Rick's return. Then, when Lori FINALLY tells Rick what happened, Rick does the SAME THING. "You thought I was dead and you and Carl were alone." Which translates to: "All right, you made a mistake with Shane, but it's OK because you thought I was dead." I "defend" Shane because the script very deliberately leaves him all alone, with responsibility he isn't really responsible for and no one to come along and neatly shift all the blame for his mistakes and misdeeds because that's a more comfortable interpretation of events for them." The poor bastard was set up to fail, and not just fail but do the heavy lifting for others and then, as they enjoy the fruits of said heavy lifting, demonize him at leisure. Proof? Here ya go: Shane can't find a pulse or respiration in his comatose partner, but despite knowing his partner's wife and child will stay and die where they are if there's the slightest chance Rick is alive, Shane tells Lori that Rick might still be alive. Would've been the moral thing to be honest with Lori, yes? Or: (Assuming Shane let events play out as they actually did, Rick returns and Lori demands Shane stay the hell away from her and her family.) Carl gets shot, someone's gotta go get medical supplies required to save his life but Rick is needed at Carl's side to provide continued transfusions. Shane honors Lori's request and say "Gee Lori, I'd sure like to help the little guy out, but out of respect for your wishes I can't get involved.) Or even: (After Lori's car crash) Shane takes a seat next to Daryl and they have a few beers while whittling and talking about girls they banged 15-20yrs ago. Lori is left to hoof out down the road towards town with 4 rounds remaining in her revolver. All even more insane and screwed up than what Shane actually did, right? That's because the only way for Shane to "win" is to risk dying a horrible death on a regular basis out of pure altruism for the sake of the woman who's "annulled him", the kid he's not supposed to have anything to do with, and the unborn child that may be his that he'll be expected to risk his ass for but never be acknowledged as anything but his dad's ex-cop ex-friend. No WONDER the guy's a headcase.

[Neil]

but can decide (albeit temporarily) to leave Shane behind ...or did he just realise he couldn't take the creatures on without 1 ton of metal wrapped around him? ie: He had to retreat to save him!

[krisvds]

Wyldwraith. Not only is he a member of the 'in defense of hopeless guys given the boot by a lady they love' society, he is also its president.

[Wyldwraith]

Actually, Someone amongst TWD scriptwriters is WAY more damaged than me. I never would've considered putting the guy the girl dumped on in a situation where he needs to commit a capital crime to save her whelp, not to mention himself. They say the secret to top-shelf writing is "Write What You Know" so some poor chump has turned his emotional battle scars into a major payday. The American Dream made manifest

[Thorn]

@Wyld Of course TWD is a world/setting of various moral shades of gray rather than black and white, but (and this is just my opinion) I feel there's a tendency amongst many of our compatriots here to want things to adhere as closely to the comics as is feasible in the television medium. That's cool and all, but the way things happen in the comic is not by any means automatically the "right way" for events and character interactions to transpire in our beloved TV show. I was more referencing this, and while of course you could just be basing your comments off member comments, the comics are really exact and to the point and really as source material they are going to guide the direction of the show. It is the well spring from which it sprang and most of the items from from the comic made it into the show. I speak for only myself when I say I don't want a word for word adaptation and I am happy there has been such a willingness to make changes here and there. That said I respect and appreciate your posts and your right to your opinion, there have been many discussions I have enjoyed even when we are on opposite sides of it... I don't mind that it is all in good fun and there is no personal component towards a difference of opinions over characters in a show. As was said we all take a lot of us into these discussions with us. I do like talking about it and real meaningful developments should be noted, where it gets too much is when it is over and over again layering new arguments on top of the old so you have a 3,000 word essay on old material with a bit of new material added in. I just would hate for your posts and message to be lost in "TLDR" situations and a lot of time it is happening. Also being open minded is so key, not making assumptions as fact, and saying things with certainty only the writers could know. Or omitting key bits of information. I guess an example might be... saying Rick was going to leave Shane as a way of condemning him, and then downplaying the fact that he came back... especially when you downplay the fact that Shane actively had him in his sights (earlier in the series) because he decided not to. It shows a hypocritical bias so visible as to be undeniable. The funny thing is even THAT is not the same. Rick leaving Shane not risking his life and letting Shane fend for himself is different than Shane considering to consciously and willfully kill Rick with his own hands when Rick's guard is down. By Shane's own logic Rick should have left him, Rick didn't. That is the man I want leading me and having my back. Not the Otis slayer

[Neil]

By Shane's own logic Rick should have left him, Rick didn't. That is the man I want leading me and having my back. Not the Otis slayer As much as I think Shane is losing it, Otis isn't an example IMHO. It was both of them, or one of them... Shane made the impossible decision, so at least one of them survived...