TWD 6x16 "Last Day on Earth" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[facestabber]

Explanation to the cliffhanger: obviously they wanted to keep the victim secret. as was mentioned previously, with the amount of press attention the show gets, the only other way to do this would be shoot multiple deaths and insert the real one at the last minute... except, each "death" would require a ton of effects work, cast head moulds practical puppets, resetting between takes would take an age etc. this would all be expensive and time consuming, and then mostly be discarded and pointless, all to conceal a 15 second or so sequence. it would have been a monumental waste of time and effort. with that in mind i think this was the only way to maintain the mystery. my theory as to who it was:   Carl - obviously not. else the line about his eye is meaningless Rick - Definitely not Maggie/Daryl - no, already injured, not a demonstration of strength Sasha/Michonne - Women. spared for the same reason Glenn/Eugene - Likely, but probably not Glenn has become a bit of a non-entity since his "death" earlier in the season and Eugene still has a story to tell The other guy whose name i can't remember, Aaron?- what would be the point? he's mostly background scenery and little more than a redshirt Abraham - My bet's are on Abe. he's had a big build up the past few weeks, been a great character, then this week has his "hopeful looking forward to the future" moment (which is always fatal on TWD) with Sasha, and a "final farewell" to the other character he's had most interaction with: Eugene. His manner was defiant and oozed confidence (which would make for a good demonstration) as well as being an obvious "alpha male" figure within the group. to me, at least, it's pretty cut and dried. which is a shame. i like Abe, and i hope Cudlitz gets the recognition he deserves. My guess is they haven't filmed any deaths or try and reinact scene. Maybe a pan out shot like horse shot of episode 1. Or Maybe Negan adding a death pic of character to a board of many others. I like Abe too. I want more of his story. - - - Updated - - - I went ahead and researched a bit more of that scene. I was wrong about Daryl, he did look hurt and out of it. I stand corrected. I think some of you might be forgetting that Negan played it by chance; his victim was chosen at random, so it didn't really matter if the person was injured or not. At least that how I always imagined it when I read the book. The episode started with someone's POV and it also ended with that same POV. It wasn't a coincidence that the finale was bookended that way. So, yeah, that leaves Daryl, Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita. If you also read Negan's body language as he's stating "...feed the other eye to his father.", all signs point he's speaking to his right; so his victim is on the left side. The clues are all there. Maggie and Abe are over there too. And I agree that Daryl doesn't look good. Hes losing blood and I believe it was his POV in van fading in and out. Hmmm did victim fade in and out? wonder if that's a clue.

[Moon Knight]

I watched the scene again and it does appear that Negan does in fact kill someone on his own accord and not leaving it to chance. I was going by comic memory and was so upset at the finale's ending that most of those details didn't stick. I don't think it was Maggie, Abraham, Michonne, or Rosita. It's either Glenn or Daryl, imo.

[UndeadHippo]

just rewatched it, paying particular attention to the position of the characters within the scene and what they would see from their own point of view. during Lucille's meal, the only thing visible behind Negan is trees. the character cannot see the RV (which rules out a whole lot of people) or the rest of the group (which rules out Glenn as from his position on the extreme left, he would be able to see the rest of the line.) this would place Negan on the extreme left near Eugene, Carl and Aaron.... assuming it's not just a cock up with the filming of the POV scene of course. Edit: the main light source is car headlights from that side however, and Negan appears to be lit from behind, which would place him at the other, opposite end....basically, the closer the character is to Rick (the center) in the lineup, the safer they appear to be....

[JDP]

Enjoyed some aspects of the episode, but the psychic, over theatrical Saviors just ruined it for me... Somehow:- 1) Knowing the scooby gangs every turn/move, even when on foot... 2) Surely the scooby gang realised given the impressive numbers of the Saviours, that their destination was therefore a waste? If they could afford that many men, and block a road with a mountain of trees, they could easily take over the town (Hilltop)! 3) Why risk the scooby gang getting away over and over, and not just take them hostage at the first road block with a hundred men popping out of the tree line? Silly! Rick even realizes that they are being led into a trap, yet they still go for it! I guess the only "explanation" one can give for such a potentially suicidal decision is that since Maggie needs a doctor they have no other choice but to take a chance, even if the Hilltop was in fact very likely taken over by the Saviors. But then again they still could more easily have just removed any one of the roadblocks by using the couple of RPGs they must still have in their arsenal and just go straight to the point instead of wasting time playing the cat & mouse game of bouncing from one roadblock to the next.

[facestabber]

Rick even realizes that they are being led into a trap, yet they still go for it! I guess the only "explanation" one can give for such a potentially suicidal decision is that since Maggie needs a doctor they have no other choice but to take a chance, even if the Hilltop was in fact very likely taken over by the Saviors. But then again they still could more easily have just removed any one of the roadblocks by using the couple of RPGs they must still have in their arsenal and just go straight to the point instead of wasting time playing the cat & mouse game of bouncing from one roadblock to the next. Rick sure does realize it but a tad too late. The first group would have been the easiest target. All armed but guns lowered. Abe and Sasha could have slipped out back of RV and coordinated ahead of time when to unleash some full auto. But Rick didnt act for a couple reasons. None of which we know for sure so I'm guessing. The easiest reason is there is a risk that the saviors get off some rounds. Assault rifles will easily disable an RV and zip right through its walls. Add a chance that Team Rick member goes down in hail of gun fire. Secondly I wonder if Rick saw the somewhat relaxed posture of the Saviors and had concerns about his flank in the tree line. I would be. And Rick loves Maggie. Non romantic of course but death was looking real for her and he played risk vs reward. Rick's heart over rode his common sense. I can't blame him there. Humans feel. If he was a robot that always played it uber safe he wouldnt be likeable. Now the RPG is one hell of a luxury but in reality has limits. The first group, they may have gotten away with but some Saviors were behind different vehicles. Good chance some survive and unleash some full auto fury. At 50 yds I know what I can do with full auto. The other roadblocks grew bigger and more wide spread. Add that RPGs are unguided and you guarantee any miss would be catastrophic. Also I'm not serious, these are just some ideas. No doubt plot device was driving Rick as well. Personally, if I was on team Rick I would plea for a no taken hostage policy. After Terminus the group should make the united decision to just go out guns blazing and kill everything you can. The zombie Apoc isnt really that pleasant of a place to live so fuck it, I'm not kneeling and I'm not gonna let someone torture me or kill me slowly.

[Moon Knight]

Rick even realizes that they are being led into a trap, yet they still go for it! I guess the only "explanation" one can give for such a potentially suicidal decision is that since Maggie needs a doctor they have no other choice but to take a chance, even if the Hilltop was in fact very likely taken over by the Saviors. But then again they still could more easily have just removed any one of the roadblocks by using the couple of RPGs they must still have in their arsenal and just go straight to the point instead of wasting time playing the cat & mouse game of bouncing from one roadblock to the next. The cat and mouse game is what made the episode so damn scary. The look on Rick's face was horrifying. He knew he f*cked up bad and now he has the group in a no win situation. I remember reading the book and blaming everything that happened on Rick. Now that I gave it time and thought about it, that was some horrific shit and the tension was building every second. If it wasn't for the terrible ending this would have been a classic.

[MinionZombie]

Interesting theory regarding a 'soft reveal' of a potential Daryl death. There are weird people out there who'd give up on a show just because one single character left - which is just insane, in my view - how on earth have you watched this long on the strength of one single character alone, who wasn't even in the first couple of episodes, and didn't become the giant that he is now until season 3?! People who'd ditch TWD on losing Daryl don't deserve TWD in their lives. Seriously though, what a daft thing - but some might just do it - so yeah, a 'soft reveal', taking the plaster off slowly rather than quick - letting the possibility linger in their minds for a long while to ease them into the idea, with Reedus' own show as a comforting hand on the shoulder. If they did pick Daryl it'd be quite something to lose him! If we saw that happen in 7x01 it might, as said, encourage more folks who might otherwise leave to stay - the "I've started so I'll finish" mentality, and with a much reduced case of 'insta-aggro'. It's debateable how many audience members would leave, but there's no doubting that Daryl is a hugely popular character on the show - and audience figures mean advertising revenue which means budgets capable of pulling off the show we know and love, particularly at this time when the world is expanding more and more. So there's a considerable financial consideration to take into account. TWD doesn't grow on trees. I think some of you might be forgetting that Negan played it by chance; his victim was chosen at random, so it didn't really matter if the person was injured or not. At least that how I always imagined it when I read the book. The episode started with someone's POV and it also ended with that same POV. It wasn't a coincidence that the finale was bookended that way. So, yeah, that leaves Daryl, Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita. If you also read Negan's body language as he's stating "...feed the other eye to his father.", all signs point he's speaking to his right; so his victim is on the left side. Negan might be playing it by random - but the writers won't. The writers determine where Negan's bat falls last. Good catch on the POV aspect - you could very well be right, the victim might be in that group of four - so it could be a greater chance of being Glenn or even Daryl (who, aye, does have his own motorbiking show starting soon - albeit he'd have filmed it in-between TWD shoots). Shit, it could be Michonne! I think Rosita's safe - her death wouldn't have the impact that this cliffhanger now requires as an absolute necessity, and there's more for her to do. OR is that what the writers want us to think? Might it have just been a bookend of sorts? Might it be a way to distract us and make us think it's one of those four when in actual fact it's someone from the RV group? So, really, taking all the chat here to date, the core contenders in my mind would be Abraham, Daryl, Glenn, or Michonne. Ooof - tough choice. I'd hate to lose any of them. Now the RPG is one hell of a luxury but in reality has limits. The first group, they may have gotten away with but some Saviors were behind different vehicles. Good chance some survive and unleash some full auto fury. At 50 yds I know what I can do with full auto. The other roadblocks grew bigger and more wide spread. Add that RPGs are unguided and you guarantee any miss would be catastrophic. With the RPG it's a one shot deal and you have to be on target - but it's also bulky, so hopping out of that RV's side door, aiming, and firing would take longer than a Saviour to realise "OH SHIT!" and shoot the person holding the RPG. At worst it's shoot off course and harm nobody, at best the RPG handler wouldn't even get a shot off. The cat and mouse game is what made the episode so damn scary. The look on Rick's face was horrifying. He knew he f*cked up bad and now he has the group in a no win situation. I remember reading the book and blaming everything that happened on Rick. Now that I gave it time and thought about it, that was some horrific shit and the tension was building every second. If it wasn't for the terrible ending this would have been a classic. 1) Agreed. The slowly increasing sense of dread and hopelessness was extraordinary in this episode. Each encounter chipped away at Rick's confidence. They all became mice in a cage as cats prowled around them. 2) I think the frustration of the cliffhanger will diminish in time. Certainly once Season 7 gets underway ... but right now it's a pain in the arse. I certainly feel that the cliffhanger got in the way of the episode as a whole. I've seen numerous versions of comments online akin to 'having sex for 90 minutes and then stopping just before you bust a nut'. The aggro is all aimed at that cliffhanger and is getting in the way of everything else the episode nailed ... in some ways it's actually taken away from the impact of Negan appearing, which is a shame ... but really folks shouldn't allow the lack of a few seconds of footage to sully the entire deal.

[facestabber]

The POV to start and finish episode is being theorized as the victims. Ive seen theories that use that and justify it by position inside van. Some say that's Glenn's, some say Michonne and some Daryl. IMO the van POV is most likely Daryl. The focus goes in and out much like a person bleeding from a bullet. Having said that I still don't believe the clues really exist. No way creators want it discovered by camera angles etc. It sucks that we lost a team member but on the bright side a great team still exists. And some day Negan will die and it better be more dramatic than what the Gov got.

[shootemindehead]

1) People that say they're done with the show were either never really into the show in the first place, or are tossing their toys out of their pram. The same wailing happened after Sansa's wedding night on Game of Thrones. A lot of flapped gums, and then cooler heads prevail. The Internet is always full of immediate rage and not enough reflection. Of course. But you can't keep dicking your audience about and expect everything to be grand. 'The Walking Dead' will no doubt still keep a large crowd, but the producers/studio aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of crap. I personally know people who are done with it now. They've not liked the direction of the show over the last while and that ending pushed them over. 2) Hollow? I think it's working well. She's come full circle in some ways, and it's all about the cost to her soul. These things she has done - killing Karen and David was the first major step, and the really huge step was having to put down Lizzy. She had to execute a child whom she had grown to love and was almost at the point of essentially calling her her own - and she had to execute her ... that's some pretty messed up stuff right there. She's had to kill a lot of people, many deserved it, others not so much. It's a heavy burden to carry. Out in the wilderness it was just survival mode, but now in Alexandria where people are living (relatively) normal lives, the contrast has never been more stark to her. The interaction with Morgan - who had chosen the complete opposite path to her - threw even more light onto her actions. Frankly, just having her be a badass with no after effects would be boring and cartoonish. Yeh, it's hollow. The time to perhaps persue this Carol goes nuts story line would have been after she killed Lizzie. That would have made sense. But she's been offing folk without giving a toss for so long now that at this juncture, her freak out looks stupid. Her whining on the ground about dying was awful. Having her question her murderous ways after telling Liz to look at the flowers would have made sense. Doing it now looks like the writers have run out of ideas for her. Erm, are you sure that's how it went? I've not checked myself, but I remember it going a bit different to you:   Glenn and Maggie had decided to leave Alexandria and set up shop at the Hilltop with their impending child. They were planning to go on a later convoy to the Hilltop, but at the last minute decided to go sooner - it was on the road that Negan stopped them, and then killed Glenn. You might be right. I haven't read the comic in donkeys.

[Moon Knight]

Of course. But you can't keep dicking your audience about and expect everything to be grand. 'The Walking Dead' will no doubt still keep a large crowd, but the producers/studio aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of crap. I personally know people who are done with it now. They've not liked the direction of the show over the last while and that ending pushed them over. Yeh, it's hollow. The time to perhaps persue this Carol goes nuts story line would have been after she killed Lizzie. That would have made sense. But she's been offing folk without giving a toss for so long now that at this juncture, her freak out looks stupid. Her whining on the ground about dying was awful. Having her question her murderous ways after telling Liz to look at the flowers would have made sense. Doing it now looks like the writers have run out of ideas for her. You might be right. I haven't read the comic in donkeys. You make good points about Carol but the way I see it, Back when Carol killed Lizzie, her and Tyreese were still in survival mode. Their main objective was to find shelter and a safe haven so they went looking for Terminus. Carol started breaking down once she had discovered Alexandria and met Morgan. She was settled in and finally had time to reflect on everything she had been through and everything she had done. From killing Karen and David, executing Lizzie, Terminus, The Wolves, ect. Morgan was the one that made her question herself. She didn't have time to sit and reflect when she was trying to survive on the road. Just the way I see it. Her character is coming full circle.

[MinionZombie]

It sucks that we lost a team member but on the bright side a great team still exists. And some day Negan will die and it better be more dramatic than what the Gov got. I think the 4x08 showdown with The Governor was awesome. But yeah, he deserved even more of a scumbag's death. Also, aye, it's going to be fascinating to see Team Rick at an all-time low, and then see them claw their way back up to drag that Negan bastard down ... hopefully! Of course. But you can't keep dicking your audience about and expect everything to be grand. 'The Walking Dead' will no doubt still keep a large crowd, but the producers/studio aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of crap. The extent of the audience-dicking is debateable, but I do agree that they needed to be more mindful of their decisions with the finale from an audience perspective. Saying that other shows have done cliffhangers is true, but not enough of a reason. Perhaps a grand plan will reveal itself in 7x01 and we'll all go "yeah, fair enough, it shakes out best that way..." - but maybe we won't and will still say we would've wanted the death revealed in 6x16. There have been cliffhangers in TWD before, but we've also had payoff. Season 4 ended with them all stuck in that railway car - but we'd got them all back together again and had had an awesome conclusion to The Claimers storyline - so that finale delivered on all fronts. The Season 5 finale ended a touch softer, in that it didn't have a big cliffhanger to it, but it did have a good "oooooh" moment with Rick having just executed Porch Dick, as Reg lies in a bloody heap, and that's Morgan's first look at Rick since "Clear". I was kinda ramped up for bigger things in the Season 5 finale, my expectations were higher/different to what was delivered, but it still worked in general. I was quite relieved that no big players bought it, haha. This finale for Season 6 was awesome - except for the cliffhanger - which is like a bad aftertaste to a great meal. The time to perhaps persue this Carol goes nuts story line would have been after she killed Lizzie. That would have made sense. But she's been offing folk without giving a toss for so long now that at this juncture, her freak out looks stupid. You make good points about Carol but the way I see it, Back when Carol killed Lizzie, her and Tyreese were still in survival mode. Their main objective was to find shelter and a safe haven so they went looking for Terminus. Carol started breaking down once she had discovered Alexandria and met Morgan. She was settled in and finally had time to reflect on everything she had been through and everything she had done. From killing Karen and David, executing Lizzie, Terminus, The Wolves, ect. Morgan was the one that made her question herself. She didn't have time to sit and reflect when she was trying to survive on the road. Just the way I see it. Her character is coming full circle. Bang on, Moon, bang on. Carol never had the time to contemplate her decisions and actions until she'd got to Alexandria, and it wasn't until Morgan rocked up with his ZA religion that it sewed a seed of doubt. Their butting of heads really drove the point home and now Carol's found an awful pit inside her. She's dealing with a torrent of guilt right now. She wants out. Morgan knows there's a better way - redemption is possible - but Morgan's also realising that his hippy-dippy "everyone is precious even if they're trying to cut your head off" mindset doesn't work well enough. I wonder if Morgan partly sees in Carol an opportunity to do what Rick refuses to engage with? Perhaps that's how it started, a one-way thing, but now I think he'll try and meet her in the middle. He has his own discovery going on right now, too.

[Moon Knight]

Both Carol and Morgan were on totally different paths regarding their moral outlook. Carol would kill without hesitation and Morgan simply wouldn't kill. Both these characters needed eachother so they can meet in the middle. Carol telling Morgan that in order to protect those you care about, you have to kill. To Morgan, it was either that Savior or Carol that got to live. Morgan made his decision and chose Carol; and in that moment he let go of his beliefs. He killed that Savior so Carol could live. He cares for her. Morgan said "What I believe - I'm not right. There is no right. There's just the wrong that doesn't pull you down." during his car ride with Rick back in 6x15. I think that's pretty spot on and both Carol and Morgan needed eachother to understand this. I believe Carol will become even stronger because of it; and one day so will Rick.

[shootemindehead]

You make good points about Carol but the way I see it, Back when Carol killed Lizzie, her and Tyreese were still in survival mode. Their main objective was to find shelter and a safe haven so they went looking for Terminus. Carol started breaking down once she had discovered Alexandria and met Morgan. She was settled in and finally had time to reflect on everything she had been through and everything she had done. From killing Karen and David, executing Lizzie, Terminus, The Wolves, ect. Morgan was the one that made her question herself. She didn't have time to sit and reflect when she was trying to survive on the road. Just the way I see it. Her character is coming full circle. Bang on, Moon, bang on. Carol never had the time to contemplate her decisions and actions until she'd got to Alexandria, and it wasn't until Morgan rocked up with his ZA religion that it sewed a seed of doubt. Their butting of heads really drove the point home and now Carol's found an awful pit inside her. She's dealing with a torrent of guilt right now. She wants out. Morgan knows there's a better way - redemption is possible - but Morgan's also realising that his hippy-dippy "everyone is precious even if they're trying to cut your head off" mindset doesn't work well enough. I wonder if Morgan partly sees in Carol an opportunity to do what Rick refuses to engage with? Perhaps that's how it started, a one-way thing, but now I think he'll try and meet her in the middle. He has his own discovery going on right now, too. Both Carol and Morgan were on totally different paths regarding their moral outlook. Carol would kill without hesitation and Morgan simply wouldn't kill. Both these characters needed eachother so they can meet in the middle. Carol telling Morgan that in order to protect those you care about, you have to kill. To Morgan, it was either that Savior or Carol that got to live. Morgan made his decision and chose Carol; and in that moment he let go of his beliefs. He killed that Savior so Carol could live. He cares for her. Morgan said "What I believe - I'm not right. There is no right. There's just the wrong that doesn't pull you down." during his car ride with Rick back in 6x15. I think that's pretty spot on and both Carol and Morgan needed eachother to understand this. I believe Carol will become even stronger because of it; and one day so will Rick. I understand what you guys are saying and it's a good perspective. I suppose my issue is more to do with the writing and timing which, to me, is way off. Carol's been killing people left right and centre. She's been duplicitous and cautious with regards to enemies. She's fooled a lot of people into false senses of security and has delivered whammos to people on numerous occasions, because her character has grown to accept and even embrace the need to kill or be killed with regards to certain people in this world. And all this has happened over a long period of time in the show too. But now, all of a sudden, she has a crisis because Mags is up the duff and she found a crucifix? Nah. It's not a good or convincing story line for her at this stage of the game. Maybe series 7 will expand on it or just drop it. Who knows. Contrasted with Morgan though, who has found some sort of moral code and has tried really hard to live by it. But circumstances have forced him in a very clear way to see that his code is actually a detriment, by and large, to both him and the people he cares about. Morgan's transition is being handled fairly well, but Carol's stinks. It smacks of simply having Carol's freak out coincide with Morgan's "awakening". Sure, Carol has had time to think about things, but her crisis came on too sudden in S06E14 to be really compelling (I actually thought she was faking). Maybe her confrontation with Paula showed a few things up as they seemed to come from a similar abusive background. But it would have much been better to have shown her get to this stage in a slower build up while she was in Alexandria. We're talking about going from a hard ass to rolling around on the ground whining about wanting to die in the space of a few episodes. It's incredibly jarring.

[JDP]

With the RPG it's a one shot deal and you have to be on target - but it's also bulky, so hopping out of that RV's side door, aiming, and firing would take longer than a Saviour to realise "OH SHIT!" and shoot the person holding the RPG. At worst it's shoot off course and harm nobody, at best the RPG handler wouldn't even get a shot off. You obviously would not attempt to deploy the RPGs right in plain sight of guys with guns ready to be aimed in your direction so that they can shoot you before you have time to use them, but as a surprise attack (like Daryl already did to those other Saviors who were also blocking a road, they did not see him aiming the RPG at them since they were distracted by what was going on with Abraham and Sasha.) Once the team knows that the roadblock is there, they simply back off out of sight, as if they either don't want any further dialogue or an armed confrontation with them. Then a team member with the two RPGs is dropped off and heads to the wooded area on the side of the road and carefully approaches the roadblock as the rest of the team goes back to distract them under the pretext that they have changed their mind, they want to accept a deal and would like to speak to Negan, if possible. While the Saviors blocking the road are being distracted with this, the unseen team member slams them with the couple of RPGs while the rest of the team opens fire on whoever manages to escape the blasts. Roadblock removed.

[MinionZombie]

You obviously would not attempt to deploy the RPGs right in plain sight of guys with guns ready to be aimed in your direction so that they can shoot you before you have time to use them, but as a surprise attack (like Daryl already did to those other Saviors who were also blocking a road, they did not see him aiming the RPG at them since they were distracted by what was going on with Abraham and Sasha.) Once the team knows that the roadblock is there, they simply back off out of sight, as if they either don't want any further dialogue or an armed confrontation with them. Then a team member with the two RPGs is dropped off and heads to the wooded area on the side of the road and carefully approaches the roadblock as the rest of the team goes back to distract them under the pretext that they have changed their mind, they want to accept a deal and would like to speak to Negan, if possible. While the Saviors blocking the road are being distracted with this, the unseen team member slams them with the couple of RPGs while the rest of the team opens fire on whoever manages to escape the blasts. Roadblock removed. Mmm ... perhaps ... but what's to say they wouldn't get taken in the woods, particularly on their own? You might be fine, but just as easily you might not. Also, even if you did blow them up, you'd still have to clear all the flaming debris out of the road - and with an explosion like that, you'd possibly attract attention from nearby roads. The Saviours likely had walkie talkies and were doing check-ins with each other - as soon as that team didn't check in another group (or more) would come running while Team Rick are scooting searing hot metal and charred bodies out of the way. There's no easy solution to the road blocks. Interesting that Gimple said, on the 'web only Talking Dead after show' clip, that there were other roadblocks we didn't see in the episode. So these guys really have their shit together now. They got caught with their trousers down to begin with, tried to react in a somewhat haphazard manner that underestimated Team Rick's capabilities, so now they've gone FULL FORCE and have triumphed. Sad times for the Ricktatorship.