The Andy Situation

[krakenslayer]

In the world of Dawn '04, Solid Snake's not showing up. Some ultra-trained, done-to-death-in-movies Ultimate Warrior Commando Squad wouldn't need the mall in the first place. To even exist, they would have to be coming from a place for more advanced than Sears. Come on man, I know nothing about weapons and even I could make some Molotovs out of bottles, rags and petrol - all of which I could put my hands on within five minutes. You can also make black powder out of sulphur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate, all easily obtainable from any high school chemistry department and numerous other freely available sources; stick that mixture in a sealed-up pipe, throw some nuts, bolts and nails in there for shrapnel, pop in a fuse made of a lace coated in super glue, and you've got a very deadly little pipe bomb. Don't try that at home by the way. Anyone with a copy of The Anarchist Cookbook can make things that go bang with relative ease. Sure they'd probably have to be better supplied than the people in the mall, but let's imagine the raiders have plenty of weapons and materials, and now they're after food, luxuries and a safe building to secure.

[Wyldwraith]

Well, If we're just imagining things I say that a friendly counter-insurgency unit HALO drops onto the mall roof just in time to ice your commandos and get themselves some nurse and stupid redhead tail. Ain't the imagination wonderful? Now neither of us needs to answer pesky questions such as where such well-equipped/well-organized combatants came from, or why out of the hundreds or thousands of similarly stocked malls in the geographical region, they just *happened* to drop by this one. I mean, the raiders at least had a helicopter bobbing about to clue them in to the mall in Original Dawn. The painted signs on the roof and hung over the edge of the roof should've read "If you can read this and aren't at 500+ feet you're already ghoul-chow." Oh, and in regards to "Plan B"...you hit the nail squarely on the head. Unless I was some depraved whacko who'd somehow come to the conclusion that the horrible crime of rape was O.K (a stretch, seeing as how I got permanently disabled PREVENTING a gang-rape, but hey, this is the Zombolocaust), and that I intend to make a sex-slave out of the dumb redhead girl...since I can imagine not ONE other single useful existence for her, their Plan B was idiotic. Write the girl off, continue with plans as previously laid out. The loss of the Big White Truck was more of a loss than that redhead. K, rant over. Think I need to take a break from Dawn '04 threads since they seem to provoke the worst in me. Unsurprising, since its one of the VERY few movies ever to provoke me to feel an actual sense of rage against the protagonists.

[krakenslayer]

Well, If we're just imagining things I say that a friendly counter-insurgency unit HALO drops onto the mall roof just in time to ice your commandos and get themselves some nurse and stupid redhead tail. Ain't the imagination wonderful? Now neither of us needs to answer pesky questions such as where such well-equipped/well-organized combatants came from, or why out of the hundreds or thousands of similarly stocked malls in the geographical region, they just *happened* to drop by this one. Um... I'm not talking about the writer pulling random stuff out of his ass and just leaving the audience to just fill in the blanks, I'm talking about what the filmmakers could do to make a helicopter raid plausible (which I think it could be).

[Trin]

'Plan B' was actually the ad hoc reaction to rescue the (possibly) last hot redhead left alive, after her stupid decision to go after her dog. Sending the dog was Plan B. Going after the girl who was going after the dog was plan WTF. I like to believe the rest of them were going after the dog too. Or the truck. Or the sandwich. Anything short of admitting they were really willing to risk (waste) their lives attempting to save that ridiculously stupid girl. Not to mention that when push comes to shove there was a manhole cover 30 feet from the gun shop and unrestricted access to the tunnel beneath from within the mall. You'd think Andy could'a busted it out of the shop and made it to the manhole before getting ganked, especially if Ving and a few of the others were waiting with the cover open waiting to close it as soon as he was down.

[Thorn]

In the world of Dawn '04, Solid Snake's not showing up. Some ultra-trained, done-to-death-in-movies Ultimate Warrior Commando Squad wouldn't need the mall in the first place. To even exist, they would have to be coming from a place for more advanced than Sears. Who said anything about solid snake? Any one scavenging the corpse of national guard or riot police could easily have access to these devices. There are plenty of veterans around with the knowledge of how to use weapons like the ones mentioned above as well as inventive people with know how. More over we do not have any idea who all is left alive, there very well could be a rogue branch of the military around that goes around looting and preying on innocent. Just because I offered a counter point to your absolute statement doesn't make my idea ridiculous. I never said the A-team I listed a number of options which would all be plausible in the world presented to us. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not possible. It is as possible as the writer wants it to be. If zombies can run and feed on the living I think another group of survivors could be alive with basic military training and supplies. ---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ---------- Well, If we're just imagining things I say that a friendly counter-insurgency unit HALO drops onto the mall roof just in time to ice your commandos and get themselves some nurse and stupid redhead tail. Well there is making things up that are easily accepted, and then there are things that go so far outside the scope of the film as to destroy the immersion. Your idea is clearly ridiculous. Raiders or ex military assaulting the mall is not. These raiders having weapons improvised or otherwise is not only believable it would be required and would help to explain their still being alive TO prey on those inside the mall. Ain't the imagination wonderful? Now neither of us needs to answer pesky questions such as where such well-equipped/well-organized combatants came from, or why out of the hundreds or thousands of similarly stocked malls in the geographical region, they just *happened* to drop by this one. Imagination is wonderful forgive me however for liking it to make sense within the context of the film however. As to why this mall. Why not? It would not be much of a story if they went to an empty one and we never got to see them would it? The point of the discussion was raiders or some sort of force motivating those holed up inside the mall to leave we are suggesting and discussing ways to motivate that action. You are nit picking. Why did our survivors pick this mall? They could have gone to another one and we could have just looked at the fountain for an hour and a half. That would have been worth my 10 bucks and the price of popcorn. I mean, the raiders at least had a helicopter bobbing about to clue them in to the mall in Original Dawn. The painted signs on the roof and hung over the edge of the roof should've read "If you can read this and aren't at 500+ feet you're already ghoul-chow." And in this case they were up on the roof constantly discharging firearms, I dare say making that kind of noise is bound to attract attention. It is logical to assert that if a band of raiders was nearby they could have heard the gunshots and gone to investigate. They too could have tried to go to the many other areas as our survivors did, but found no help... no easy pickings. Here they have a fortress. Now me personally. I wouldn't fight unless I had to. In the original dawn why didn't the bikers go elsewhere obviously confrontation is dangerous and wasted energy. I do not see you decrying that, you just say they saw a helicopter and that is good enough for you. Okay. In my story they hear shots. If that is the only stumbling point I think I addressed it for you.

[Wyldwraith]

Wait, Thorn, I apologize for being flippant and smart-assed on your post. It was disrespectful, and actually misleading. For one thing I was never in fact satisfied that out of all the places the bikers in the original Dawn could've gone, they *happened* to be in the right place to sight the helicopter. In general, the purpose of my post was meant to underscore the unlikelihood of two separate and unaffiliated groups choosing to fight and die over the same piece of real estate during the same time frame. Or even more basic, to ask the question why *fight at all against entrenched defenders* when you can simply motor 20-30 miles down the road to the next Mall? I mean surely the Munroeville Mall can't POSSIBLY be even CLOSE to unique in its area as regards resources available. I live in a relatively small town and we have 2 malls and EIGHT strip malls, NOT counting the shopping complexes that spring up around Wal-Marts and other franchise grocery stores. Since I can see my poking fun at the improbability was considered offensive and in bad taste, I will again apologize and withdraw from the discussion. Carry on.

[bassman]

Why would two groups fight over a piece of land when they could just move to the next? Think about the history of mankind for a moment.

[Trin]

In the original Dawn the bikers had been roaming for months. It's not inconceivable that they were hitting every single mall and strip mall in the state in a slow progression. As to why they'd fight for the one mall still with people in it. They did say, "We don't like people who don't share. You just f'ed up real bad." These guys didn't need a reason beyond that. And I will echo Bassman's comment. Yeah, history proves that what one person has another one wants regardless of what else is available.

[Thorn]

Wait, Thorn, I apologize for being flippant and smart-assed on your post. It was disrespectful, and actually misleading. For one thing I was never in fact satisfied that out of all the places the bikers in the original Dawn could've gone, they *happened* to be in the right place to sight the helicopter. In general, the purpose of my post was meant to underscore the unlikelihood of two separate and unaffiliated groups choosing to fight and die over the same piece of real estate during the same time frame. Or even more basic, to ask the question why *fight at all against entrenched defenders* when you can simply motor 20-30 miles down the road to the next Mall? I mean surely the Munroeville Mall can't POSSIBLY be even CLOSE to unique in its area as regards resources available. I live in a relatively small town and we have 2 malls and EIGHT strip malls, NOT counting the shopping complexes that spring up around Wal-Marts and other franchise grocery stores. Since I can see my poking fun at the improbability was considered offensive and in bad taste, I will again apologize and withdraw from the discussion. Carry on. Oh no worries man sorry if I snapped back, it just seemed like a reasonable discussion was met with two sarcastic posts that were kind of unmoving and not open to debate. I tend to loathe that, I mean why come to discuss things if your opinion is the only right one and everyone else is clueless? I also hate when people speak in absolute terms as if they have sole dominion over things. That said I got a bit pissy back and I am sorry for that. I also agree as I hinted to, I found the mall attack in the first Dawn poorly motivated and if I was in charge of the bikers I would never risk my people in that kind of a siege. So we agree there. As to there not being two well armed bands in the area, I can see your point but again in a movie it can happen and does all the time. You need to create drama, you need conflict and tension. So if you can accept the zombies... you have to admit accepting another band of armed survivors is not that much of a stretch if it furthers the plot. Lastly let me just try to provide motivation for it. Our survivors established very early on there was no help coming, rescue stations were out, Fort Pastor was gone. People couldn't travel from point a to point b without losing numbers of their group. So if there was another group that was armed and motivated, but low on supplies. They might find it easier to fight through 8 survivors in a stairwell than hundreds of thousands of the undead in the streets. Perhaps they ran out of gas... and needed to land. Maybe they were crazy. I mean you can motivated it anyway you want creatively you know? Right place wrong time. /shrug In the end it is a story and I for one would have liked to have seen something that motivated the survivors to flee... something other than "I'm on a boat". Anyhow no harm no foul always enjoyed discussing things with you. ---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ---------- Why would two groups fight over a piece of land when they could just move to the next? Think about the history of mankind for a moment. In the original Dawn the bikers had been roaming for months. It's not inconceivable that they were hitting every single mall and strip mall in the state in a slow progression. As to why they'd fight for the one mall still with people in it. They did say, "We don't like people who don't share. You just f'ed up real bad." These guys didn't need a reason beyond that. And I will echo Bassman's comment. Yeah, history proves that what one person has another one wants regardless of what else is available. Really good points, you said it much better than I could have myself.

[Wyldwraith]

Ok, You drew me back in. First, the vast majority of territorial conflicts you're referencing were fought by individuals interested in either the strategic position or long-term benefits of the patch of dirt being fought over. On the other hand, there IS a historical contemporary quite similar in methodology to the original Dawn Bikers. The barbarian/nomadic militant culture based on lightning raids and seizing plunder, where performance in said raids was as important to the individual as the loot gained. Ie: Vikings, Mongols, Huns, Goths, Hell's Angels, etc. The ONE problem I have with the bikers in Dawn comes in 2 parts. 1) Looters want loot, not casualties. Now yes, since they were confident they vastly outnumbered the mall defenders, there's nothing inconsistent in their behavior so far. My problem comes once they're inside the mall and apparently not being opposed. How did men who've survived this long do so by caring about stuff like Rolexes and 14 carat gold necklaces? Beyond that, the suicidal behaviors they exhibit, sitting down in the blood-pressure cuff with zombies swarming all around, guys riding around hitting zombies in the face with pies etc. It's inconsistent with the behavior of hardened survivors. The 2nd part of my problem is even simpler. Once they had access, once they seemed unopposed by the mall inhabitants, they had no plan. Why risk all those casualties if you don't have a plan to seize goods worth the risk? Other than my previously mentioned issues with improbability that were well-addressed by the theory that the bikers were systematically hitting all resource centers in the area, that's the end of my issues. Again, didn't mean to put down or otherwise offend anyone's point of view, just thought I'd explain myself.

[Trin]

Ok, You drew me back in. First, the vast majority of territorial conflicts you're referencing were fought by individuals interested in either the strategic position or long-term benefits of the patch of dirt being fought over. The most contested piece of dirt on the earth is fought over due to religious significance. Not that the mall qualifies - just pointing it out. Not everyone's rationale for wanting something is based on what you or I might want. My problem comes once they're inside the mall and apparently not being opposed. How did men who've survived this long do so by caring about stuff like Rolexes and 14 carat gold necklaces? Beyond that, the suicidal behaviors they exhibit, sitting down in the blood-pressure cuff with zombies swarming all around, guys riding around hitting zombies in the face with pies etc. It's inconsistent with the behavior of hardened survivors. What makes you think they would've had even one casualty if the dawn crew hadn't intervened? Yeah, they were seemingly stupid. But they were also very used to operating in the open amongst the zombies. Without Flyboy starting a fight they might have romped through the mall half the night without losing anyone. The 2nd part of my problem is even simpler. Once they had access, once they seemed unopposed by the mall inhabitants, they had no plan. Why risk all those casualties if you don't have a plan to seize goods worth the risk? This is a very interesting point. In your view their goals should have been to gather necessary supplies in the least risky method possible. Makes sense. Mine would be too. But in another thread we're talking about how anger and violence get pent up in survivors. What if part of the goal was to let the guys blow off steam? Let them go pick on someone else and romp around the mall for a while? We do see the leaders of the biker gang trying to reign the guys in after a bit, but ALSO letting them have some fun. Maybe that fun is required to keep them from getting too rowdy with each other during the long downtimes between raids?

[Wyldwraith]

This is a very interesting point. In your view their goals should have been to gather necessary supplies in the least risky method possible. Makes sense. Mine would be too. But in another thread we're talking about how anger and violence get pent up in survivors. What if part of the goal was to let the guys blow off steam? Let them go pick on someone else and romp around the mall for a while? We do see the leaders of the biker gang trying to reign the guys in after a bit, but ALSO letting them have some fun. Maybe that fun is required to keep them from getting too rowdy with each other during the long downtimes between raids? Possible, Yet I maintain if the social dynamic driving such a group requires its leaders to essentially "let the dogs off the leash" for awhile at the beginning of each operation, it wouldn't be long before that very behavior caused massive casualties. As many zombie movies have illustrated, very large numbers of zombies can move into the most inconvenient of positions before survivors in the area know they're there. Put another way, if those Bikers had been behaving in a Walmart with maybe 30-50 zombies inside it the way they behaved at the Munroeville Mall, how many men would they have lost during their exit strategy (assuming they have one) if they triggered the sort of delayed-reaction swarming out of nearby structures that we see at the beginning of Day? Essentially I'm expressing doubt that unruliness of ANY widespread sort will lead to much death long before even the most numerous group of armed civilians makes it to the 90 day+ mark of the zombie apocalypse. ONE mistake that lets a horde get 7-8 deep around your position and its game over for everyone IMO. Which those deafeningly loud choppers make frighteningly likely, again IMO.

[zombieparanoia]

I think andy should have been burning ammo night and day shooting zombies till he could just walk across the fucking parking lot. I mean, you're stuck in a gun store with all the ammo in the world and no food. Between you and food(and pussy) is a parking lot full of targets. Wheres the problem?

[Trin]

He shoulda tried to eat one.