Gun Ownership

[babomb]

i'm worried about the idiots we somehow allowed into power, forcing our men and women in uniform into abusing us to facilitate a state of weak-kneed compliance to our corporate exploiters. I'm worried about that too. I think that disarming the populace is a major goal to that end. but guess what? even if you got a converted ar-15 with front handles, NV scope, with a 30 round mag, even if your jackass buddies do too, the military can probably handle you. That's where you use the lessons learned from others. Our military seemed to have a difficult time handling the well armed folks in southeast Asia, and the less well armed folks in Iraq and Afghanistan. This country found it's independence through an armed populace. Fought off 2 organized and equipped standing armies in order to do so. Using the same unconventional warfare that was eventually used against us in the most recent conflicts. It works! It's costly and gritty and it sucks, but it does work. a well-armed citizenry will NEVER be as effective against tyranny as even a few smart and well-organized people who aren't afraid to speak up and be strong enough to peacefully solve problems While I'm all for peaceful resolution, I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Not because I'm a gun nut, not because I'm an armchair toughguy or a sociopath or anything like that. Just because I watch, and I see how things like that are dealt with. And I'm not the only one. Right now we're about 1 step away from tyranny. You can't help but notice how the OWS thing played out. It started out strong, everyone was standing their ground, but look where it is now. It's done. Nothing was achieved. Just to be clear, the scenario we're discussing, having to take up arms against a tyrannical GOV, is utterly horrifying. I'm not one of those people who wants that to happen. I'm in no hurry to be killed and/or watch my loved ones be killed. Which is most likely what the result of this scenario would be. I have no fantasies or delusions about this. but I also have no fantasies or delusions that the state of affairs in this country can be solved by the 2nd coming of Martin Luther King. Our corporate exploiters are much smarter than we even know or give them credit for. They have peaceful tactics too. Like propaganda, disinformation, debt-lock, surveillance, political lobbyists, and they have the $$ to keep it up for as long as they need to. They've learned from the past, unlike the majority of the citizens. They know how to prevent people from having the support of the populace. They're experts at turning people against people. I totally respect the fact that you're a non-violent person. I'm not a violent person either. I don't advocate or wish for violence in any form. But I don't think they're gonna give up the power they have, and the power they wish to have without violent intervention.

[shootemindehead]

...Most farmers sons in the UK are well versed with guns from a very early age and you dont hear of many problems with them... Ya know, Trick...there's a whole world of difference with farmers teaching their kids about the kitchen shotgun and using it to scare the crap out of crows that are chewing on the tillage and some 8 year old kid lining his glock up on a man shaped target at "gun camp". It's not even in the same universe.

[Christopher Jon]

Ya know, Trick...there's a whole world of difference with farmers teaching their kids about the kitchen shotgun and using it to scare the crap out of crows that are chewing on the tillage and some 8 year old kid lining his glock up on a man shaped target at "gun camp". So you've been to one of these gun camps? Yeah, I didn't think so. Just makin shit up, you are.

[slickwilly13]

But, EIGHT FRIKKIN YEARS OLD! That's bonkers... Maybe when they're in their teens? But EIGHT FRIKKIN YEARS OLD! It's absolutely needless! At that young an age a kid should be playing and imagining and dreaming... He (she) should be enjoying his (her) childhood. Not being needlessly exposed weapons? They're just too young to fully understand it... Why expose them to it, needlessly? -- -------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ---------- So so so sad! And utterly needless. I suspect this was more for the adults entertainment than actually aimed at benefitting the child This will shock you even more. I learned to fire a handgun and rifle at age 4. I may have mentioned it in another gun thread.

[rightwing401]

While this does seem to be on its way towards a heated thread, I find the differing points of view interesting. What I've seemed to have noticed (at least my personal observation) is that members from the UK and other European countries are very much against the kind of massive ownership of private firearms for individuals here in the states, whereas myself and the other Americans are primarily for extensive ownership of firearms for individuals. I personally think a lot of this boils down to personal psyche, if I may say so. For our friends across the pond, unless I'm mistaken, you all have lived and grown up in predominately free gun societies, so your arguments against readily available possession of firearms makes sense to me. Now does the lack of private ownership of guns make your countries safer? I don't know, I've never been to the UK, or any other European country, much less lived there. Only you guys can answer that question. On the other side of the pond, we americans (most of us anyway) have lived in a very gun accessable society, and even one that in ways encourages the private ownership of guns. Most people I know have been raised around guns from when we were old enough to stand, taught how to shoot, how not to aim a weapon at anyone unless we intend to kill them. Now does the massive availability of weapons in our country make it safer or more dangerous? Who's to say. There's more than enough cherry picked facts to support both arguments. I tend to believe that this is more of a personal issue, in adherance to age old american individualism. If one believes that large numbers of guns available all around them makes life more dangerous, then it's their choice not to have the weapons around them. On the flip side, if they believe that ownership of guns makes them safer, then it's their choice to possess as many legally accessable firearms as they feel they need. Myself, I personally trust myself to defend my own life from potential danger rather than relying on others to keep me alive. Now will this view on life actually keep me alive at some point or end up killing me, I have no way of knowing. But I accept that responsibility and accept any consequences that come from that decision.

[botc]

Correction you do not have to have a federal firearms license to own automatic firearms. The proper paper work and a horridly heavy tax stamp at a class 3 ffl dealer can land you a 40mm machine gun if you want. And imported aks come over as parts kits you poopyheads. I happen to love guns and don't knock till you try it. And quit shootin your mouth off till you have actually shot a gun. Bunch of cry baby women's genitalia if you ask me. -- -------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 PM ---------- And to add no automatic or otherwise noted types of firearms made after 1968 domestic or imported can be owned. So that means anything pre 68 is fair game Moderator Note: Edited pejorative. Please post civilly.

[babomb]

C'mon now. I like firearms as much as the next guy, but there's no reason to be insulting people. Everyone is entitled to their own views, and whether you agree with those views or not, doesn't give anyone the right to be disrespectful to other members. Conveying your points in a logical and respectful manner does WAY more to validate your own view on anything. Insulting people and being generally disrespectful only solidifies other peoples opposition to your own point of view.

[Sammich]

I knew a guy in Arizona that owned machineguns. The Tax Stamp isn't "horridly heavy". It is only $200. The privately transferrable guns themselves, due to their limited availability are very, very expensive. For example, MAC 11's run around $4,000 and MP5s in the $20,000 range. I remember years ago seeing GE Miniguns being sold in Shotgun News for something like $50,000. Getting approval through the feds and state or local agencies can take 1 month to a year. IIRC he said it took about 3 months to get approval. Machineguns made before May of 1986 are transferrable to private owners, not 1968. Anything after that date can be bought as "dealer sample" only if you have the proper licensing.

[botc]

After some research you are correct with that statement about 86. Damn shop commandos. I wasn't insulting anyone per say if that's how you spell it... I just can't stand when people speak garbage about something they know nothing about. Until you have shot a firearm don't say shit about it. If you don't like guns then say it and leave it where it is. Where I come from we have two sayings in regards to this... It is what it is and opinions are like assholes everyone has one and they all stink. Only mine smells like roses... Jk

[Neil]

This will shock you even more. I learned to fire a handgun and rifle at age 4. I may have mentioned it in another gun thread. I'd not give a knife to a 4yr old... Let alone a gun...

[LouCipherr]

I said NFA weapons, as in select fire weapons owned by people that gone through all of the federal and state laws to procure them. Ummm, I did provide you with examples with auto weapons being obtained legally. The Dividians were just another example of automatic weapons being used in a crime. No, those in particular were not NFA, the other examples were. There is much evidence that has come out in the years since the Waco raid that shows that the atrocities were done by the government, not the Davidians. That's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing automatic weapons used in crimes, not conspiracy theories. Are you saying the Dividians never used their automatic weapons? As for the other 2 cases you found, did you notice what both cases had in common? Both were done by cops, i.e. agents of the government and the MP5 was most likely a department issue weapon. There is no mention of where the Mac 11 came from or if it even was select fire. Neither say anything about the cops being the legal owners of the weapons "Department issue" is the same as obtaining legally, right? If it's not, are you saying the cops or the government issue automatic weapons illegally to their officers? Wait, wait, I know.. you're going to say the weapons were obtained legally initially, but somehow, by some weird conspiracy, that these two cops managed to get them from the true legal owners to commit the crime? -sigh- Doesn't matter if it's cops or people or government agents, and it doesn't matter if they're procured illegally or not, automatic weapons have been used in crimes. The "NFA" is just a technicality that you're going to continue to use so you can say "well, if they're legally procured, they're not used in crimes" which, as we all know, is false. I provided examples. I don't have the time nor the incllination to satisfy your curiosity as to "where the Mac 11 came from" - who cares? It was an automatic weapon, in the hands of a police officer, used to commit a crime. If that's not good enough for you, that's not my problem. I already stated the reason why most crimes aren't committed with automatic weapons: It's a lot easier for a criminal to get a semi-auto weapon than a fully automatic. Occam's Razor. Since you don't know much about firearms, how can you make that generalization? Sammich, c'mon man, I don't have to be a technical expert to know the average joe gun owner isn't smart or stupid enough (depending on your viewpoint) to convert their weapon to fully automatic. If it was "that easy" every gun owner and their mom would be doing it and would probably have at least one automatic weapon if not more. I know MANY gun owners, not a single one of them have - or even want - an automatic weapon. Give to me a large break. Patent searches and internet searches will bring back everything someone mechanically inclined would need to know to do a conversion. "mechanically inclined" - How many gun owners are "mechanically inclined" Sammich? You don't need to be to fire a gun, you just have to know how to put the bullets in the gun and how to make it fire (which I wouldn't consider as "mechanically inclined" as being able to convert a firearm from semi-auto to fully auto). How can you make such a generalization that just "anyone" with a little skills and the internet could do this? So, the bottom line is this (whether anyone wants to accept it or not): automatic weapons have indeed been used to commit crimes. Whether legally or illegally obtained. There are many more examples of this out there on the web, but you'll have to go look them up yourself. As for me, this is my last word on this topic. This kind of subject is worse than discussion about religion. And I'm one of the idiots FOR gun ownership!

[AcesandEights]

Please keep it civil. If you can't keep it civil, rethink whether you should be posting.

[LouCipherr]

Please keep it civil. If you can't keep it civil, rethink whether you should be posting. Was I not being civil?

[AcesandEights]

Was I not being civil? If you have to ask, you probably weren't, but I was not referring to you directly, Lou.

[babomb]

"mechanically inclined" - How many gun owners are "mechanically inclined" Sammich? You don't need to be to fire a gun, you just have to know how to put the bullets in the gun and how to make it fire (which I wouldn't consider as "mechanically inclined" as being able to convert a firearm from semi-auto to fully auto). How can you make such a generalization that just "anyone" with a little skills and the internet could do this? Many gun owners are mechanically inclined. They want to know everything there is to know about their firearms. How to break them down, clean them, install replacement parts. Many gun owners also take pride in their knowledge about firearms in general, and are also working class men and women who often have jobs that make them mechanically inclined. Taking this into consideration it's not a huge leap in knowledge from breaking down and repairing a firearm to being able to machine parts for it. Even more likely that a person would know someone with the ability to machine the part. You don't have to know how to convert a firearm to full auto in order to know how to machine the parts needed to do it either. Any experienced CNC machine operator could make the parts.