TWD 3x08 "Made To Suffer" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Wyldwraith]

I disagree, I don't perceive nearly so much love or fascination with Merle, especially after the first half of Season 3. In fact, I think his "best fate" is dying to save Daryl and at least somewhat redeeming himself. The show makes a point of eliminating characters once they cross a certain moral line, and Merle has BOUNDED over that line. Merle's a replaceable thug, distinctive ONLY by his being Daryl's sibling. He was 90% an antagonist character by Ep. 2 of Season 1, and he's 110% antagonist now. Daryl may now want anything to happen to Merle, but after what Merle was a part of with Maggie (bringing them in at gunpoint, which lead to what the Governor pulled) and turning loose a Walker on Glenn while he was strapped to a chair with the CLEAR intent to kill Glenn (As evidenced by his racist comment about the Walker being hungry again in an hour because Glenn's Asian...food) there is no way the group would tolerate his presence no matter how advantageous. Glenn, Maggie or Herschel (once he finds out the details) would all shoot Merle dead on sight and spit in the eye of anyone who didn't like it. When someone reduces you to dismembering a disease-ridden corpse to use its bones as weapons, and you find yourself having to stab someone in the throat with said bone...and Merle's still right there smirking to foil the escape attempt...no...I think it's safe to say most viewers think Merle has "earned" his death. He's 10x more violent and unstable than Shane, with a clear capacity/willingness to align himself with the most depraved of human beings. If Rick & Co. let him live, what's to say Merle won't be back, this time at the head of a Dawn-style gang of raiders? Don't you think his stint in Woodbury has given him a taste for power and the satisfaction of commanding the fear of others? Merle is a bigot, a psychopath and completely without redemptive qualities. Even his attachment to his brother reveals his corruption. When he and the Governor were discussing Daryl not getting hurt when they took the prison from Rick & Co., Merle has no problem with his brother having to buy his life at the price of being a snitch and traitor to those who've helped him survive. Daryl didn't start becoming a decent guy until he was out from under his brother's corrupt influence. Allow Merle to run free, and with easy access to Daryl and Merle's first act would be trying to force Daryl to come with him and ditch "Officer Friendly's Bunch." Aside from all these good, sensible reasons there's this. I DESPISE Merle even more than I loathe the Governor, and I would be quite disappointed if he survived Season 3. What else is there to illustrate about the character? He's a bigot, check. He's violent and uses violence as a first resort, yet is hypocritical in condemning people for applying the same standard AGAINST him...and he has a distinct taste if not need for power/dominance over those around him. Hell, the VERY FIRST TIME we see Merle he's trying to "elect" himself group leader via holding the others at gunpoint. Check, Check, Check please.

[shootemindehead]

Well, that was intense! I see the show is still suffering somewhat from dodgy areas in writing. I agree completely with Wyld regarding the shard of glass in the Gov's eye. Like the "zombie smell thing", the "zombie infection thing" seems to be absolutely random. Big Black Guy #5 gets scraped by a zombie's broken wrist after it loses a hand wriggling out of a pair of handcuffs and he's whacked because he's deemed to be buggered. But the Gov can get a shard of glass in his eye socket that's riddled with zombie gick and all is hunky dory? There's something not right there. The show needs to get its lore in order and remain consistent. Other than little annoyances like that, the real PITA is having to wait ages for the next bleedin episode. - - - Updated - - - Merle could still be working for the Gov. Just a thought. Yeh. I got that vibe too. Merle could be a shill for the Gov's rabble rousing "terrorists" propaganda.

[facestabber]

Merle could still be working for the Gov. Just a thought. Ah crap you may be right. It's the perfect head fake by the writers. The viewers all know that Merle lied to gov about Michonne dying. So the viewers are expecting the gov to seek revenge on Merle. Public labeling as terrorists. Let them escape or leave as an act of mercy(politician side of gov winning hearts and minds). Infiltrate the prison and gather intel from Daryl. Can't wait till feb

[bassman]

Man, I would NOT want to be a black actor cast on this show, everytime another black guy shows up, you get killed. I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show.

[MinionZombie]

I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show. Just a bit of fun, I'm sure. A funny little coincidence - ripe for memes - just like Carl's aversion to staying indoors. As for the notion of Merle being a Woodbury mole on the inside of the prison - it's a possibility. He did declare his allegience to Woodbury (albeit after a pause for thought) in an earlier scene, so it could be a double-agent sort of deal ... that'd be interesting. Like others, I too think that if Merle has to die at some point, it'll be a redemptive act, such as saving our buddy Daryl.

[kidgloves]

I've got a soft spot for Merle and I kind of feel sorry for the Governor I really don't think Merle is working for the Gov undercover. Bit of a stretch don't you think? I can see both Dixon's making it back to the prison and Glen maybe murdering Merle in some sort of twisted revenge. I'm also liking Axel a lot. The show needs some quality comedy relief and both the actor and character seem up for it.

[mista_mo]

I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show. It's all about the timing. As soon as T-dogg was killed, Oscar took his place. The episode that Tyreese was introduced, Oscar gets killed. And it's not like T-dogg and Oscar were very well developed characters either. T-dogg was with the show up to the 3rd season, and he had maybe an entire episodes worth of lines throughout his term on the show. Oscar had almost none either, and I think he spoke 2 or 3 times during his last episode. I just got the impression they used the introduction, and subsequent deaths of these characters as a way to show the viewers that people do die in the show, without actually killing off anyone of any consequence, aside from Lori, shane and Dale of course. Also, T-dogg never replace Morgan. We only saw him for the pilot, and aside from that nothing has been said about him since what..a couple episodes into the second season? I'm betting that if we do see him again...   he is going to be how he was in the comics, when he and Rick are reintroduced.

[rgc2005]

Having read the comic book up to #104 I definitely get Deja Vu when I see the TV version of Woodbury. Kirkman said in interviews leading up to the airing of the first TV episode that he saw this as a chance to redo what he considered mistakes. Things like Rick's Hand, the unbelievably evil Woodbury and the death of Shane. Three seasons later Rick still has his hand, Shane lived for quite a while and Woodbury, along with its leader, looks and feels like that other town way down the road. I am certain that he is merging the two storylines. If Kirkman is crossing his streams this means if Merle continues to live on the show he will become a much more vicious enemy than the TV Governor ever could become.

[zombieparanoia]

I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show. Really? You don't get it? So the only black male protagonist character on the show dies in the same episode as the next one being introduced not once but twice (so far) doesn't seem weird to you? As far as Morgan, T-dog hadn't even been introduced yet. And we never saw Morgan again did we? I'd be willing to bet money that Tyreese dies in the same episode or within an episode of the next black male protagonist being introduced. It's not like dale died as soon as they found hershel, they didn't introduce beth and then immediately kill amy or sophia. And yes, lori did have to die because of the introduction of judith, she had an emergency c-section with a pocketknife by an untrained person on a workshop floor in an abandoned prison full of zombies. I do like how the black male character is getting more eloquent and charismatic as the iterations continue, T-dog = "Dammmnnnn yo!" Oscar "I've never begged for my life and I'm not about to start now.." speech and so far Tyreese looks like he's about to get his MLK on, at this rate pretty soon they'll have morgan freeman or sidney poitier on board.

[krisvds]

I'm with Minion and Bass on the black character thing. Surely it's a coincidence. You are not seriously suggesting that the writers sit around a table discussing a limit to the amount of 'black' characters in the show? Can't we just talk about characters without bringing race into it? It's not really a 'thing.' At least not to me. Doesn't feel that way when watching the show. The little proposed theory doesn't really add up either: what about Michonne? Like Minion said: no more than a bit of fun, good for a few memes, played for laughs. Now that with Tyreese we have a bit of The Wire in our favourite zombie show things are looking up on the good actor front: both him and the governor are excellent.

[mista_mo]

The little proposed theory doesn't really add up either: what about Michonne? She's the only black female in the show, plus she is a fan favourite from the comic books. I don't think she is going anywhere for a long time.

[Wyldwraith]

If Michonne stays she's GOT to improve, One dramatic fight scene does not redress the one-dimensional nature of her characterization and dialog. Daryl is an excellent example of the man of action/man of few words motif....whereas Michonne is so uncommunicative you begin to wonder if she was raised by Walkers from childhood (lol). Seriously though, the monosyllabic responses...the chip on her shoulder towards EVERYONE....it's already tired. I'm to the point that if I see Michonne come onscreen I judge the events occurring to see if combat is imminent. If not, I just sort of glaze over where she's concerned. What I hate the most is how people will state one or more sentences to her, and she'll just stare at them like a retarded deaf-mute....or at BEST reply with a declarative sort of almost-one-liners. Then, when she does choose to speak (during the raid of Woodbury) it's a simple statement of the completely obvious. Of COURSE Rick & Co. need her to help bust Daryl out if that's their intent. There have been many characters on this show so far that have said as much or more through their acting as opposed to their dialog. It didn't prevent them from speaking up when necessary, and that singles Michonne out with a vibe that simply isn't interesting.

[MinionZombie]

Regarding Michonne, I think 3x08 was her best episode yet. She wasn't over-the-top in terms of the katana stuff, and she had a broad range of emotions to show - real shock and surprise at Philip's version of televised entertainment, and caring and concerned side when she thought she'd found a captive child, then the surprise of finding out Penny was a walker, then that look of the upper hand when she had power over The Governor who was pleading for Michonne not to snuff out undead-Penny, then the kick arse rough & tumble fight, then the encounter with Andrea, and all the stuff where she was not exactly a help but also not exactly a hindrance to Rick & Co as they crowd around that car and train carriage. So I thought this was definitely the strongest episode for Michonne - I imagine that she's the sort of character that takes time to develop, both on-screen and behind-the-scenes for the writers and directors and Danai Gurira herself. They have to figure Michonne out and test the boundaries - they'll be learning as they go along, like most shows, but the good thing with TWD is they truly do learn from their little mistakes along the way, while ratchetting up all the best things about the show to unbelievable heights. On the black character replacement thing - yeah, it's a coincidence, they're not doing it deliberately, but of course it's just happened that way and it looks a bit silly/funny/iffy. Ideal for meme making, but it's not some conspiracy either - just a happenstance that stands out a bit-too much. Perhaps they're already more mindful of that now ... but really, when it came to Oscar during that raid, he was the only character in that moment who was expendable. It's a daring raid, and chances are someone's going to die (otherwise it'd appear that Woodbury's defences aren't good enough, and that the Ricktatorship have a God Mode cheat enabled ), and in that scenario it was only Oscar who was expendable ... a damn shame though as I was liking his character ... I wonder if he ever got to relax at the end of a day in those slippers he found?

[zombieparanoia]

I'm with Minion and Bass on the black character thing. Surely it's a coincidence. You are not seriously suggesting that the writers sit around a table discussing a limit to the amount of 'black' characters in the show? Can't we just talk about characters without bringing race into it? It's not really a 'thing.' At least not to me. Doesn't feel that way when watching the show. No, I'm not suggesting the writers sit around and talk about racial quotas, but lets look at the reality here, given the racial diversity of the US, why is there only one asian character in the entire show, the black male protagonists appear to have a limit of one and the only hispanic characters seen on the show were portrayed as housekeepers and care aids who acted like chicano gangsters? why not just write them in as taco vendors and fruit pickers? Let's face it, white people seem to have done pretty well in this zombie apocalypse, just look at the people in the background at woodbury, not really a lot of ethnic diversity is there? The little proposed theory doesn't really add up either: what about Michonne? Angry black woman who doesn't like white people telling her what to do? Totally not a stereotype. Like Minion said: no more than a bit of fun, good for a few memes, played for laughs. I think it's the horror movie law of ethnicity; they either have to be cannon fodder, the only character of their race or a stereotype. On the black character replacement thing - yeah, it's a coincidence, they're not doing it deliberately, but of course it's just happened that way and it looks a bit silly/funny/iffy. Ideal for meme making, but it's not some conspiracy either - just a happenstance that stands out a bit-too much. Perhaps they're already more mindful of that now ... but really, when it came to Oscar during that raid, he was the only character in that moment who was expendable. Why expendable? Rick, Carl, Daryl and Hershel have all been shot and survived just fine. He was expendable because his replacement had arrived. He got redshirted as soon as another black guy showed up.

[rongravy]

Dang, it's getting all racial up in this piece.