TWD Season 11-B & 11-C discussion... **ROLLING SPOILERS**

[Neil]

^ A good summary

[Suicycho]

It’s been quite awhile since I’ve posted but I’ve always been lurking the past 20 years. Anyway, the variant talk got me to post. They may be new to TWD but Romero always had zombies that could climb ladders. Use of tools was mentioned on one of the news casts in Dawn. Flyboy opened the door into the main hideout right before Peter put a bullet through his head. I’m not even going to get into the zombie abilities in Land.

[MinionZombie]

To be fair, though, that was Romero's zombies, whereas in TWD they kinda went with their own version. They're trying to introduce that 'going to places they were familiar with' aspect in this most recent episode, but that's never really been explored at all - we've just had any old walker any old where. This is another element that could have been better implemented over a longer period of time, at least beginning in season ten - hell, they could have ditched that awful train car episode and done an episode about a variant walker(s) to better establish the notion. It's a slightly clumsy way to retcon things a bit. Outside of season one we've not really had any of that sort of stuff. Romero had it from the get-go and explored it more and more as the films went on, so it made much more sense and was part of the DNA of his zombie films. TWD are coming at this too late in their own game, even if I did enjoy the variant walker. Makes you think how the rest of the show would have been affected if all the walkers were like that from episode one.

[facestabber]

It’s been quite awhile since I’ve posted but I’ve always been lurking the past 20 years. Anyway, the variant talk got me to post. They may be new to TWD but Romero always had zombies that could climb ladders. Use of tools was mentioned on one of the news casts in Dawn. Flyboy opened the door into the main hideout right before Peter put a bullet through his head. I’m not even going to get into the zombie abilities in Land. Yep. All good points. And they didn’t even do anything over the top with it. It appears the walkers are thinking, processing and strategizing to an extent. But it didn’t seem atrocious as in the not to mention Land.

[MinionZombie]

Yep. All good points. And they didn’t even do anything over the top with it. It appears the walkers are thinking, processing and strategizing to an extent. But it didn’t seem atrocious as in the not to mention Land. Land gets a bad rap. I felt it picked up the baton left by Day of the Dead made sense. Was it occasionally a bit wibbly-wobbly in how it was deployed? Sure, but it wasn't outside the realm of how Romero was progressing his zombies. Bub literally cries for his fallen master/friend and seeks revenge.

[Neil]

Land gets a bad rap. I felt it picked up the baton left by Day of the Dead made sense. Was it occasionally a bit wibbly-wobbly in how it was deployed? Sure, but it wasn't outside the realm of how Romero was progressing his zombies. Bub literally cries for his fallen master/friend and seeks revenge. Land started soooo well, and then just lost its way IMHO. And, the whole notion - which of course The Walking Dead has just touched on - of the US currency being worth anything after the outbreak seems bonkers to me...

[MinionZombie]

Land started soooo well, and then just lost its way IMHO. And, the whole notion - which of course The Walking Dead has just touched on - of the US currency being worth anything after the outbreak seems bonkers to me... I don't understand why some folks have such a hard time with that. It's a monetary system that anyone living already knows and understands and even holds some value in, much like the shiny flashy consumer items that people gather up in both Dawn and Land despite the apocalypse. In Land, Kauffman and his cronies are from the old world and are attempting to re-establish the old world order, which involves the use of a financial system - and, naturally, they're going to use the old system that they already had control over (and no doubt had hoarded their cash, protecting it jealously for the past three years). It's a similar reason why Kauffman sets up games and vices to entertain the poor masses and keep them distracted. It's why rare items of luxury are coveted by people like Cholo, why acquiring them is worth risking one's life (or the lives of others).

[JDP]

I don't understand why some folks have such a hard time with that. It's a monetary system that anyone living already knows and understands and even holds some value in, much like the shiny flashy consumer items that people gather up in both Dawn and Land despite the apocalypse. In Land, Kauffman and his cronies are from the old world and are attempting to re-establish the old world order, which involves the use of a financial system - and, naturally, they're going to use the old system that they already had control over (and no doubt had hoarded their cash, protecting it jealously for the past three years). It's a similar reason why Kauffman sets up games and vices to entertain the poor masses and keep them distracted. It's why rare items of luxury are coveted by people like Cholo, why acquiring them is worth risking one's life (or the lives of others). Baloney. This has already been pointed out and explained a bunch of times in other threads. Kaufman and his cronies are simply trying to cling to and continue things as they were before the zombies showed up, there hasn't been any "stop" to that "old world" yet, so nothing to "re-establish", it is already there and still working. That's why money still has some value at such a stage in the zombie crisis. The beginning of the movie even clearly implies that such outposts are being established at a time when the media is still around broadcasting news. They are nothing "from the future" but things from the past, which are trying to cling to that past for as long as possible. All very different from what we see in Day, where that "old world" and its financial system is truly long gone, money being nothing but just more garbage and debris on the streets where now only the dead and wild animals roam.

[facestabber]

Land gets a bad rap. I felt it picked up the baton left by Day of the Dead made sense. Was it occasionally a bit wibbly-wobbly in how it was deployed? Sure, but it wasn't outside the realm of how Romero was progressing his zombies. Bub literally cries for his fallen master/friend and seeks revenge. Didn’t Bub feel natural though? I’m not gonna pretend I don’t hate Land, I do. Actually I felt embarrassed leaving the theater. Bub was rudimentary and child like and he certainly wasn’t the norm of zombies. Bub was the exception as Logan said, he had to destroy the others. I do agree as I reflect on Land that it wasn’t a surprising depiction/progression from day. George was George after all. The original script was even more wacky.

[JDP]

Didn’t Bub feel natural though? I’m not gonna pretend I don’t hate Land, I do. Actually I felt embarrassed leaving the theater. Bub was rudimentary and child like and he certainly wasn’t the norm of zombies. Bub was the exception as Logan said, he had to destroy the others. I do agree as I reflect on Land that it wasn’t a surprising depiction/progression from day. George was George after all. The original script was even more wacky. What "progression from Day"? There isn't any. There is only one "smarter" zombie in Land too, and he does not do anything that "Bub" didn't do either. The only thing we did not see "Bub" do was to "lead" the other zombies somewhere, but that was because the movie ends soon after he becomes free. We have no idea what did he do after those events. Maybe he eventually led the mob of zombies out of the bunker. Plus we even saw zombified "Flyboy" in Dawn lead a pack of zombies all the way to the upper rooms in the mall. There is nothing really "new" in Land in this respect.

[facestabber]

What "progression from Day"? There isn't any. There is only one "smarter" zombie in Land too, and he does not do anything that "Bub" didn't do either. The only thing we did not see "Bub" do was to "lead" the other zombies somewhere, but that was because the movie ends soon after he becomes free. We have no idea what did he do after those events. Maybe he eventually led the mob of zombies out of the bunker. Plus we even saw zombified "Flyboy" in Dawn lead a pack of zombies all the way to the upper rooms in the mall. There is nothing really "new" in Land in this respect. I would look at Big daddy audibly calling(grunting) toward the hand holding zombie couple to see the living and go after them. Bub was conditioned/coached Big daddy wasnt. I see big daddy is a much higher functioning zombie than Bub. The entire scene with Kaufman in the limo. That’s a progression imo. I can’t really speculate on what wasn’t shown when the movie ends. Ofcourse Bub made a cameo in Season 4 of TWD so it looks like he did escape the mine. hahaha. Just my observations.

[shootemindehead]

I don't understand why some folks have such a hard time with that. It's a monetary system that anyone living already knows and understands and even holds some value in, much like the shiny flashy consumer items that people gather up in both Dawn and Land despite the apocalypse. In Land, Kauffman and his cronies are from the old world and are attempting to re-establish the old world order, which involves the use of a financial system - and, naturally, they're going to use the old system that they already had control over (and no doubt had hoarded their cash, protecting it jealously for the past three years). It's a similar reason why Kauffman sets up games and vices to entertain the poor masses and keep them distracted. It's why rare items of luxury are coveted by people like Cholo, why acquiring them is worth risking one's life (or the lives of others). I don't understand why some people cannot get their head around the money thing either. Kaufmann's entire raison d'etre is the establishment of a new order based on the old norms with him at the helm of course. The fact that he's using old world currency as a viable trade commodity in Fiddler's Green makes sense. Outside of the city, of course, the money is worthless. But inside the confines of the city walls, it can still be used to buy stuff and the denizens of the Green are slaves to it in their various social strata. As long as people are willing to trade using a currency, it'll be a viable option. But that's the point of Fiddler's Green. It's an enclave that has managed to be built up during the apocalypse, when most other places have gone to shit. But they live in their own particular enclosed world. Some of the people there probably don't even leave the walls of the city, instead relying on the plebs to go and do the hard, and sometimes, dirty work.

[JDP]

I would look at Big daddy audibly calling(grunting) toward the hand holding zombie couple to see the living and go after them. Bub was conditioned/coached Big daddy wasnt. I see big daddy is a much higher functioning zombie than Bub. The entire scene with Kaufman in the limo. That’s a progression imo. I can’t really speculate on what wasn’t shown when the movie ends. Ofcourse Bub made a cameo in Season 4 of TWD so it looks like he did escape the mine. hahaha. Just my observations. Zombie Flyboy also made gestures and noises, which seem to signal the other zombies to follow him. "Bub" did not have a chance to do such things since the movie ends soon after he gains his freedom and comes into contact with other zombies again. Also, unlike "Big Daddy", whom we only see grunting and growling, "Bub" actually manages to utter a few words of intelligible speech. Don't really see much of any "progression" between any of these "smarter than usual" zombies in Romero's movies. They all seem to pretty much be capable of doing things that are uncommon for the average zombies. - - - Updated - - - I don't understand why some people cannot get their head around the money thing either. Because such "explanations" don't make much sense. If things were such, then the extortion money that Cholo demands from Kaufman would be totally useless for him, for example. It doesn't make any sense that he would demand it if he does not have other places he can go to to enjoy it. He would have been better off demanding large amounts of food and supplies from Kaufman, not money. The movie, therefore, implies that money still has value even in places outside of Kaufman's reach. Such outposts as his' are nothing from some future events, but relics from the past that have managed to linger on, that's why they still place some value on money. The movie itself also implies that the outposts are being established soon after the pesky zombies show up and start to wreak havoc on society, not at some distant future events.

[MinionZombie]

I don't understand why some people cannot get their head around the money thing either. Kaufmann's entire raison d'etre is the establishment of a new order based on the old norms with him at the helm of course. The fact that he's using old world currency as a viable trade commodity in Fiddler's Green makes sense. Outside of the city, of course, the money is worthless. But inside the confines of the city walls, it can still be used to buy stuff and the denizens of the Green are slaves to it in their various social strata. As long as people are willing to trade using a currency, it'll be a viable option. But that's the point of Fiddler's Green. It's an enclave that has managed to be built up during the apocalypse, when most other places have gone to shit. But they live in their own particular enclosed world. Some of the people there probably don't even leave the walls of the city, instead relying on the plebs to go and do the hard, and sometimes, dirty work. YES! Zombie Flyboy also made gestures and noises, which seem to signal the other zombies to follow him. "Bub" did not have a chance to do such things since the movie ends soon after he gains his freedom and comes into contact with other zombies again. Also, unlike "Big Daddy", whom we only see grunting and growling, "Bub" actually manages to utter a few words of intelligible speech. Don't really see much of any "progression" between any of these "smarter than usual" zombies in Romero's movies. They all seem to pretty much be capable of doing things that are uncommon for the average zombies. And yet you've never argued that Dawn takes place after Day or Land. Big Daddy's progression is all witnessed in his actions. Had he been coaxed into speaking lessons by some crazed scientist then he'd have no doubt managed to learn short sentences and then use them at his own will. Thankfully we didn't see that, but it could have happened. Because such "explanations" don't make much sense. If things were such, then the extortion money that Cholo demands from Kaufman would be totally useless for him, for example. It doesn't make any sense that he would demand it if he does not have other places he can go to to enjoy it. He would have been better off demanding large amounts of food and supplies from Kaufman, not money. The movie, therefore, implies that money still has value even in places outside of Kaufman's reach. Such outposts as his' are nothing from some future events, but relics from the past that have managed to linger on, that's why they still place some value on money. The movie itself also implies that the outposts are being established soon after the pesky zombies show up and start to wreak havoc on society, not at some distant future events.

[shootemindehead]

Because such "explanations" don't make much sense. If things were such, then the extortion money that Cholo demands from Kaufman would be totally useless for him, for example. It doesn't make any sense that he would demand it if he does not have other places he can go to to enjoy it. He would have been better off demanding large amounts of food and supplies from Kaufman, not money. Cholo ain't that smart though is he? If he had a bit of nous, he would have figured that Kauffman was playing him for a sap a long time ago. All Cholo can see is that money is his way out, which is why he's doing Kauffman's dirty work and hoping to get enough so he can get a flat in Fiddler's Green and live like the "other half" do. He doesn't really know that there isn't any other enclaves like Fiddler's Green out there. How could he. He has no real idea that money, in all probability, can't buy him what he needs in another part of the country. But in the words of Peter from 'Dawn of the Dead', you never know. Plus, clinging to the old world is all that he understands. In addition, money is what makes Fiddler's Green go around as per Kauffman's oligarchic mechanisations. But Cholo is at the bottom of the ladder and has been all his life, even before the shit hit the fan. He only sees money as his way up that ladder, not recognising that all the time the guy at the top of the ladder will be the one to kick it away as soon as he takes the first step up. It was the basic essence of Romero's allegory for Fiddler's Green in the first place. The movie, therefore, implies that money still has value even in places outside of Kaufman's reach. It doesn't "imply" any such thing. All that we see is someone hoping that money can buy them what they want elsewhere because that's what it did before things went south. What the movie actually tells us, however, is that this is now the LAND of the dead. The clue is, literally, in the title. The dead are in the ascendency and human beings are very much the second class in this new world because of the fact that they are still clinging to the old ways of doing things. Romero's entire message through his quad of dead movies is that humans could overcome the odds if they were to co-operate. The situations in each film bear this out, from Night to Land. The humans fail because they cannot relinquish the old ways and remain at odds with one another, allowing the zombies to win every time. - - - Updated - - - YES! Somebody's been watching a lot of Buster Keaton movies lately.