The Shane Topic..

[Trin]

Other options? Limping back and cutting off in another direction making as much noise as possible after throwing your bag and handing your firearm to Otis and screaming him to move to the vehicle. Then trying like mad to get their attention and get the hell away and if I didn't then die knowing i gave my life making amends for what I did wrong. First, I doubt that two hobbling targets does anything but split the zombies up. It worked because there was a sure meal. Second, I don't see Otis doing the cold hearted thing and leaving Shane to a near certain death. He'd hesitate and that'd be it. Third, I'm not certain Otis makes it to the truck even if Shane buys him some time. Between the two of them Otis looked like he was done for regardless. In any case if I'm Shane I don't trust that Otis can get the job done, simple as that. I stand by my comment that what Shane did was the only option in Shane's eyes. I also don't see the stance that Shane should feel he has to make amends for anything. He genuinely tried to find signs of life from Rick at the hospital. He did his best to protect the group after that. He has put his life on the line repeatedly for others. Sure he has some bumps on the morality road, but nothing that warrants self-sacrificing levels of guilt.

[Sammich]

Projecting one's own conceived "morals" on others results in things like the inquisition and witch burnings. Otis was doing what he could to attone for his MISTAKE. On the other hand, Shane killing Otis was INTENTIONAL just to save his own butt. I find it strange that you think Shane was acting as a moral crusader when the guy has shown he has no morals at all.

[babomb]

Other options? Limping back and cutting off in another direction making as much noise as possible after throwing your bag and handing your firearm to Otis and screaming him to move to the vehicle. Then trying like mad to get their attention and get the hell away and if I didn't then die knowing i gave my life making amends for what I did wrong. If he didn't kill Otis, then what is he giving his life to make amends for? I hear a lot of talk about what Otis did wrong which was what hunt for food and "not see" a kid the bullet carried through the deer and then injured? Shane did knowingly and willfully leave Rick in the hospital, if he was sure he was dead he would not have barricaded the door (IMO), then bang his wife before the corpse was cold, move in like a father figure to his kid, contemplate killing his friend... attempted rape on his best friends wife... lies... there is more here but I think we have been down the road. Guys Shane is a scumbag I still like him too as a character it is okay, but why defend him and vilify Otis because Carl was in the way? Who's villifying Otis? Otis himself felt that he was responsible for Carl. Which is why he risked his ass going on the mission with Shane. Everyone realizes that what Otis did was an accident. But that doesn't mean it totally excuses him from all responsibility. Even Otis himself recognized that. Shane knew Rick wasn't dead in the hospital, nobody is saying otherwise. But what was he gonna do? Wheel him through the streets on his hospital bed? The military was outside Ricks room executing people. Don't forget that. Shane told Lori Rick was dead so that he could get her and Carl out of the city. Shane and Rick discussed that, and even Rick said Shane made the right choice on that one. Shane had no idea if Rick would ever come out of it. And it would be a safe assumption that he would've died by either walkers or the military. So what should he have done? Made his last stand at Ricks bedside? Effectively destroying any chance of saving Ricks family. Where's the sense in that? Nobody is trying to make Shane out to be a great guy here! But we, and the writers of the show, are trying to establish that there are gray areas here surrounding Shane's actions. And to simply write him off as a scumbag is missing the entire point and the depth of the character that has(to some of us anyway) been so effectively established as a major aspect of not only the characters background, but the entire show. I don't understand how you can hate him so much that you willingly disregard those aspects of his character that have been painstakingly crafted to create the ambiguity that I as well as others are trying like hell to make you aware of!? No offense intended at all. But that's why those aspects are written into the show. Nope Shane should have sacrificed himself and made amends that way, and if he managed to live somehow then great, but if not he died a hero. Again, if he didn't kill Otis, then what is he sacrificing himself to make amends for? Leaving Rick in the hospital? Lying to Lori and screwing her? Those things too are crafted in an ambiguous way that's intended to leave the viewer with mixed feelings. If you jump to the conclusion that he's a scumbag that deserves to die you're missing half the point. If that was how it was intended they wouldn't have bothered with the ambiguity. -- -------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ---------- Projecting one's own conceived "morals" on others results in things like the inquisition and witch burnings. Otis was doing what he could to attone for his MISTAKE. On the other hand, Shane killing Otis was INTENTIONAL just to save his own butt. I find it strange that you think Shane was acting as a moral crusader when the guy has shown he has no morals at all. You're missing half the point too. I don't know what's causing this but it's starting to freak me out. I can't tell if you guys are unable to process the ambiguity that is intentionally written into the show and the character or if it's a totally conscious disregard of those aspects. To me it couldn't be any more obvious why Shane did what he did. It wasn't just to save his own butt! If that were the case, why would he not have shot Otis and left him to the walkers immediately upon exiting the trailer that contained the medical supplies? Why go through all the trouble of covering Otis in the gym, getting himself injured in the process? That just doesn't make any sense at all! Why would he apologize to Otis before shooting him? Why would he try to help Otis along in the last minutes of the scene? Nobody is saying that Shane ever tried to act as a moral crusader! It's almost like we're not even watching the same show here.

[AcesandEights]

It's a great debate, guys...let's not let an inability to see each others side derail it PS--I would kill for a photoshop of Shane shooting Kennedy from the grassy knoll.

[babomb]

PS--I would kill for a photoshop of Shane shooting Kennedy from the grassy knoll. I could do that. I don't know where to get the source photos from though. A still from youtube of the Zapruder footage would probably be such terrible quality that once it was done you wouldn't be able to tell it was Shane. But didn't they do an updated recreation?

[krisvds]

On Shane; the real question might be: will this debate rage on until februari? Shane isn't a bad guy as in 'he's totally evil'. The character is ambiguous. It shows that the writers are going for a 'deeper' charcater driven approach than just have the series populated with cookie cutter good and bad guys. It's also a classical Romero approach to the zombie genre: the undead aren't evil, they are just there and do what they have to do. Man has most to fear from himself in a situation where society has collapsed. Thus exposing the 'animal' in all of us. This is what TWD excells in: the characters clinging to a certain degree of morality end up in bad spots because of that (Rick in bascically every single comic book), but so do the ones who let loose of all reservations and just opt for the opportunistic approach (Shane in the tv series). He's slowly turning into an animal. Shooting Otis, be it justified or no, has just opened the door and set him on the path to what I think will eventually be self destruction. He may not be a 'bad guy' yet, but clearly that's where the writers are sending him. I can't for the life of me imagine a TWD series where this character evolves into a natural leader of this group of people. He will be at the center of conflict. Luckily! If it were just the zombies it would turn into a bore. That being said; as I have stated before, the writing could be better. The Shane character is written to stir up these kinds of debates as you guys are having to the expense of, well, believability. He's a bit of a loose canon in more ways than one. One moment he's all altruistic and sensible, the next a guy considering rape and what not. Not that these twists and turns in personality are impossibe in real life, it's just that it seems to me that hey are are written to manipulate your feelings and insert the 'ambiguity' with little regard to plausiblity. In short: I feel the writers intent more than I believe the character of Shane. Still: damn fine flawed little zombie show.

[childofgilead]

What would the punishment for cold blooded murder be then, in your new regime? I mean hell, if you're going to stipulate a bullet to the brain for an accident, then I'd assume the punishment for that would be..drawn and quartering? Raped to death by a well hung rhesus monkey? But seriously, I LIKED Shane after I saw what he did at the hospital, when I saw that he THOUGHT RICK WAS REALLY DEAD. I thought hey, they're going to go somewhere else with this character. And they have. They've made me wonder if he was always a morally repugnant asshole or if the end of the world has just taken out some of his stuffing. I guess I'm just a wide eyed optimist for hoping that if I'm ever put into, not only a survival situation, but a situation where I would have to make a choice between myself and someone else that I'd fight until the very last breath. Yes, the scene may have been "Hollywood" or padded out due to some editing, but the fact is it's presented to us, so we have to take what we've seen. What I saw repulsed me. If any "moral" could be assigned to it, it's revenge, not justice. Did his plan work? Yeah, he got away and saved Carl. Then why lie? Because he knew it was wrong?

[babomb]

That being said; as I have stated before, the writing could be better. The Shane character is written to stir up these kinds of debates as you guys are having to the expense of, well, believability. He's a bit of a loose canon in more ways than one. One moment he's all altruistic and sensible, the next a guy considering rape and what not. Not that these twists and turns in personality are impossibe in real life, it's just that it seems to me that hey are are written to manipulate your feelings and insert the 'ambiguity' with little regard to plausiblity. In short: I feel the writers intent more than I believe the character of Shane. Still: damn fine flawed little zombie show. I agree for the most part. I think the characters are about as realistic as the series as a whole. It's realistic in terms of a TV show, but only relatively so. In a zombie apocalypse(or any apocalypse) things just wouldn't happen that way. The majority of survivors would be people who happened to be in a good location or very near one when the shit goes down. Like states with lower population levels and sparsely distributed population centers. The people who survive will tend to be more self sufficient. More like Hershels group but with several families combined and they'd be much more security minded and organized, well armed and well stocked. They'd be very solitary and extremely weary and suspicious of outsiders. The experience itself would be more very loooong periods of mind bending boredom with breif periods of intense activity. People would be very judicious with their use of things like electricity and hot water. The world in general would be so much more unforgiving than it is in the show.

[Andy]

I guess I'm just a wide eyed optimist for hoping that if I'm ever put into, not only a survival situation, but a situation where I would have to make a choice between myself and someone else that I'd fight until the very last breath. Very easy to condemn with hindsight on your side isnt it? Just remember that your "fight until the very last breath" would most likely cost your life, the person with you their life and a innocent child their life. Then why lie? Because he knew it was wrong? The answer to that is pretty much the same as the above, shane got out of the situation and had time to reflect, hindsight hit him. He knew virtually nothing about herschel or his group at this stage but he did know carl's life was in their hands and they would probably react exactly how you and a couple of others have on here. The lie is justified for the survival of the group, if you ask me.

[childofgilead]

That's the crux though isn't it? Through his actions, Shane DID save Carl. I'm not arguing that, please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to debate the motive, as we can't know what's going on inside his head. No, what bothers me is how he acted to Dale in the swamp. Was he trying to psyche Dale out because he knew that having a loaded rifle pointed at his chest was bad? Sure, could be. But he wasn't even cold blooded about it. He was almost drinking the fear that Dale was giving off. That is the kind of behavior that has me wondering if Shane is going to start taking alot of easy ways out before too long.

[MinionZombie]

The poll needs a third option - something like "Shane did the wrong thing for the right reasons" or something like that. I can totally understand why he made that choice, but it's the sort of choice that involves committing evil - taking a life to save a life - and all that it entails afterwards, for Otis' loved ones, for the group Shane is a part of, and indeed for Shane himself - he left a part of himself behind with Otis' screams of terror and fury as he was turned into a talking buffet.

[krisvds]

The poll needs a third option - something like "Shane did the wrong thing for the right reasons" or something like that. I can totally understand why he made that choice, but it's the sort of choice that involves committing evil - taking a life to save a life - and all that it entails afterwards, for Otis' loved ones, for the group Shane is a part of, and indeed for Shane himself - he left a part of himself behind with Otis' screams of terror and fury as he was turned into a talking buffet. Agreed

[AcesandEights]

The poll needs a third option - something like "Shane did the wrong thing for the right reasons" or something like that. I can totally understand why he made that choice, but it's the sort of choice that involves committing evil - taking a life to save a life - and all that it entails afterwards, for Otis' loved ones, for the group Shane is a part of, and indeed for Shane himself - he left a part of himself behind with Otis' screams of terror and fury as he was turned into a talking buffet. I also agree.

[shootemindehead]

Again though...why not put a round n Otis' head? Thereby, sparing him the agony of being eaten alive. I understand Shane's "better him than me" choice. But, to leave the man to that fate, is unforgivable. Regardless of the Otis/Shane dilemma, he is also openly threatening members of the group. Such a man is just not needed in the greater scheme of things. Either way, I hated the way the Shane character from the books was being twisted in the show, but I have to say that it's turned out quite well in the end.

[AcesandEights]

Again though...why not put a round n Otis' head? Because a thrashing yelling victim is more stimuli and bait to a zed. I mean, it's a safe, safe bet to make and (while not saying I agree with Shane's decision) makes the killing less likely to be a complete waste. Outright killing Otis may very well have drawn some zeds to his lifeless corpse, but possibly not a 'feeding frenzy' of zeds acting on the stimulus of active and closer prey.