Why we fight; also a reason for the usage of high-yield nuclear weapons

[thxleo]

point bieng, this wasn't specificly an "well i know military docterine untill TXleo showed up, and well he's kinda..... slo. I'm "slo" because I disagree with you? Okay. And it's THXLEO...not TXleo. You sure do have alot of grammatical errors for such a superior being by the way. Also, half of the suggestions you threw out as a way to improve things in Iraq I heard Joe Biden spewing on MSNBC. Nice try though. as for name calling, i think you should take a long hard look at your and tlxleo's posts before you throw any stones about this. i maintain that the two of you are, in fact, little boys. no name calling intended - that is simply how i view the two of you. immature and trite without a clue in the world as to what you are speaking of. Name calling? What exactly have I said that was so horrible? I called you Darth, yet you call people "little boys". Maybe you should practice what you preach? How about this then...All name calling, no matter who employs it, is wrong and morally degrading to those who do employ it. Listening to you talk reminds me ALOT of Timothy McVeigh. Maybe you should have never served in the military. Sounds like it left you a sympathizer of the enemy. That is scary. And I'll tell you like I told one of the other members of the peanut gallery, it's THXLEO. Not tlxleo.

[Arcades057]

Well, Scipio, since you are so above our level of skill in debate as you put it, why even bother to argue? I', sure since you found yourself evenly matched with GrimStories (an admitted racist, bigoted, anti-gay, anti-anyting-not-him, Asian) you must really be up there in the brains department. I'm still waiting to find a point that you are debating, beyond the fact that torture is wrong, upon which we agree, and having been in the military 10 years ago somehow means you know more about the current military situation than someone watching the news, knowing folks who are there, doing online searches, and having common sense enough to read between the lines. You have apparently learned your debating "skills" from GrimStories: When you're losing, start hurling insults. Let's review my points for the slow ones... 1) No, I am not advocating nuclear war, that was something called "hyperbole." I felt that I had well cleared that up in my second post in this thread. Don't know the definition? 2) Torture is wrong. There are varying degrees of it, though. What we did to the Iraqis in those pictures was wrong and sick. What the terrorists did to countless Iraqis and coalition personnel was a little different, I say again. Underwear on head does not = cutting off a head. If you can't understand that I don't know what else to say. 3) Because I worked in Subway does not mean that I know everything about the place. Because you were in the Army does not mean you know everything about it. My, an thxleo's, opinion on the matter has just the same weight as yours. And you mentioned the fact that I lied in my posts. OK, let's see if you've been entirely truthful... i have never said the government was behind torture. i have never maintained that it was some sort of official policy. the US is only sponsoring it by extention because the soldiers engaged in it are representing the US. the lack of an official policy is most likely the reason that such acts are being committed by US soldiers. But you said earlier... it is wrong when terrorist/insurgents do it and it is wrong when the us govt. sponsors it as well. i have never claimed to be a military expert. i have said over and over that my personal experience of war and violence have given a deep, deep repugnance for both. i understand what war does to people on both sides because i have seen it up close. This part I do not doubt; however when you are constantly pointing to your military service it makes me think you are saying that my opinion, and the opinions of others who have never served, gives your opinion more weight. That is wrong. Opinionate in one hand and crap in the other, my friend. again you are engaging in one of the hallmarks of fallacious thinking and bad debate. you cannot rationally argue your point so you are seizing on any little thing, attempting to blow it up, totally out of proportion, and make it look like it proves some point you are trying to make But yet you have not MADE a point in this whole post, besides what I've outlined, and you backed away from those points. Your points were "all torture is equal... what about the detainees that have been tortured by US forces? those incidents of torture that led to several court-martials and a world wide stink. what about the soldiers from the 101st that are being charged with the murders & attempted cover up of said murders of several iraqi detainees? what about the massacre at haditha? Perhaps an unfortunate usage of words, but you had a chance to edit before you posted. But then you said... i am not using personal experiences to claim all torture is equal. i have maintained over and over again that all torture, no matter who employs it, is wrong and morally degrading to those who do employ it In every post in this thread you've pointed to your military service to prove your point. Tom Martin AKA GrimStories had a military record, too. Didn't mean he wasn't wrong on half the crap he spouted off, did it? So to recap: 1) You and I both agree that torture is wrong. You believe that ALL torture, even if unproven, is wrong. I say that all PROVEN torture is wrong. 2) We are apparently in agreement that all opinions are equal, unless backed by facts? That's where we stand. Before you post this time remember that this will be the last congenial post to you if you continue to throw about childish insults. Beyond that, have a good un!

[Mike70]

Well, Scipio, since you are so above our level of skill in debate as you put it, why even bother to argue? I', sure since you found yourself evenly matched with GrimStories (an admitted racist, bigoted, anti-gay, anti-anyting-not-him, Asian) you must really be up there in the brains department. I'm still waiting to find a point that you are debating, beyond the fact that torture is wrong, upon which we agree, and having been in the military 10 years ago somehow means you know more about the current military situation than someone watching the news, knowing folks who are there, doing online searches, and having common sense enough to read between the lines. You have apparently learned your debating "skills" from GrimStories: When you're losing, start hurling insults. Let's review my points for the slow ones... 1) No, I am not advocating nuclear war, that was something called "hyperbole." I felt that I had well cleared that up in my second post in this thread. Don't know the definition? 2) Torture is wrong. There are varying degrees of it, though. What we did to the Iraqis in those pictures was wrong and sick. What the terrorists did to countless Iraqis and coalition personnel was a little different, I say again. Underwear on head does not = cutting off a head. If you can't understand that I don't know what else to say. 3) Because I worked in Subway does not mean that I know everything about the place. Because you were in the Army does not mean you know everything about it. My, an thxleo's, opinion on the matter has just the same weight as yours. And you mentioned the fact that I lied in my posts. OK, let's see if you've been entirely truthful... But you said earlier... This part I do not doubt; however when you are constantly pointing to your military service it makes me think you are saying that my opinion, and the opinions of others who have never served, gives your opinion more weight. That is wrong. Opinionate in one hand and crap in the other, my friend. But yet you have not MADE a point in this whole post, besides what I've outlined, and you backed away from those points. Your points were "all torture is equal... Perhaps an unfortunate usage of words, but you had a chance to edit before you posted. But then you said... In every post in this thread you've pointed to your military service to prove your point. Tom Martin AKA GrimStories had a military record, too. Didn't mean he wasn't wrong on half the crap he spouted off, did it? So to recap: 1) You and I both agree that torture is wrong. You believe that ALL torture, even if unproven, is wrong. I say that all PROVEN torture is wrong. 2) We are apparently in agreement that all opinions are equal, unless backed by facts? That's where we stand. Before you post this time remember that this will be the last congenial post to you if you continue to throw about childish insults. Beyond that, have a good un! i learned nothing from grim. i enjoyed battling him precisely because he was a lunatic and a racist. he was the easiest person to set off i have ever seen. deep down i wonder just how much of tom's bull he believed and how much of it was just to get a rise out of people. till tom put thought, in his own crazy ass way, into what he was saying. i respected him because lunacy and psychosis that deep have to be held in awe. i learned debate on the debate team in school not from anyone on here. where did that come from - oh, that's right you made it up because you have nothing else to say. hyperbole has NO place in a rational debate and if you understood anything about he principles of arguement you would know that. again - i said that the us is sponsoring torture by sending soldiers off without clear directives and guidance on how to behave. this seems to be a qualification/clarification to my original post (where i didn't make this clear) that you convienetly are ignoring. how am i backing off of anything? you are the one who gave me the positive rep point with the comment" i see where you are coming from, no offense for the posts, arcades" sounds like you are the one backing off. again - i have pointed to my own experience in war to show how i understand, in a way that you clearly don't, just how destructive and dehumanizing war is to everyone involved. i have never pretended to be a military expert. just someone who has experienced war and violence and is repulsed by it. again- i have never maintained that my military service gives my opinions on anything and everything more weight. however it does give my opinion on what war is and what it does to people more weight because i have seen and experienced it. ever seen children die because they have stepped on a landmine or gotten caught between two groups of somali militia/bandits? every seen a neighborhood destroyed and dead, dying, and seriously wounded people lying in the streets because morons from another clan are lobbing mortar rounds into it? ever seen someone you care about be shot in a conflict that you don't feel is anything worth dying for? i have. i know what war is all about because i have seen it. again- i pointed those incidents involving us soldiers to show that there are two sides to the atrocities committed in iraq. you were the one complaining about the treatment of us prisoners without even acknowledging the fact that there have been many, many instances of the us military clearly going beyond what is acceptable behavior. as for this being your last "congenial" post - go ahead and start flaming. it will simply prove how childish you are and i think you would quickly find just how much that sort of behavior is not tolerated on this board. as an aside - i have had a hell of time getting this post up. this is the third try. don't know why only one sentence of came out before. ladies and gentlemen we are experiencing technical difficulties.

[Arcades057]

So then basically... we are in agreement on everything. And the "debate" and argument came from where? i learned nothing from grim. i enjoyed battling him precisely because he was a lunatic and a racist. he was the easiest person to set off i have ever seen. deep down i wonder just how much of tom's bull he believed and how much of it was just to get a rise out of people. till tom put thought, in his own crazy ass way, into what he was saying. This is so very true. It was such a blast seeing the argument he'd get into with people. No one has come close to his level of ability at aggravating seemingly the entire board. I go away for a little while and come back, only to hear DCBURNY chased him away. I chat with him now and again, try to get him to come back, but to no avail. learned debate on the debate team in school not from anyone on here. where did that come from - oh, that's right you made it up because you have nothing else to say. I never really graduated high school, so no debate team. Supposedly, at the time (this is in '99 mind you) the diploma I got from a home school was "just as good" as a real one. Apparently not. I didn't make it up, pal, I took it from what you said. It was also my own idea, seeing as how you and Grim used much the same tactics. When someone's winning, just start going "YIP YIP!" (WTF did that mean, by the way?) hyperbole has NO place in a rational debate and if you understood anything about he principles of arguement you would know that. I don't know the first thing about writing; yet I wrote a 500+ page book that has yet to generate a negative comment about it. I drive a car, yet I have no idea how an internal combustion engine works... how am i backing off of anything? you are the one who gave me the positive rep point with the comment" i see where you are coming from, no offense for the posts, arcades" sounds like you are the one backing off. You misunderstand and take my kindness for weakness. I was trying to avoid the silly little namecalling back and forth with that. I usually try to keep levity in a "debate" or argument, that way neither side goes away angry. Guess you didn't learn that one in debate class. as for this being your last "congenial" post - go ahead and start flaming. it will simply prove how childish you are and i think you would quickly find just how much that sort of behavior is not tolerated on this board. No thank you. I'm going to continue keeping it civil, as I feel that doing so will still make us both leave the "debate" without hard feelings. So to recap: We're in agreement about everything. And: ever seen someone you care about be shot in a conflict that you don't feel is anything worth dying for? Yes. I was the one who had to break the news to his mother. Also when two of my friends OD'd, I got to rack down one guy's family and I had been sitting on the couch across from the other one, not knowing he was dead, thinking he was only sleeping. The accident victim I had known for five years. He died on the side of I-95. The first OD victim I had known for about a year; the second I had known since '87. He died in 2001. In my own personal life I have.... 1) Seen someone beaten to death by a bouncer. 2) Helped revive a woman from a heroin overdose. 3) Been shot at 2 times. 4) Been stabbed 3 times. 5) Been attacked by roughly 30-50 angry black people in the Delray ghetto. 6) Other things that you'd know about if I knew you in person. As I said before, on the issue of our own personal experiences you'd see we are a little alike. Only difference is in the places where it happened. Since we're in agreement, let's agree we should get out of Iraq, unless we're there to fight to win.

[Mike70]

there is a bit of sense here after all. sorry that you have been stabbed and all that other stuff has gone down that is terrible. sorry that your homeschooling didn't qualify for a diploma. what state do you live in? they are all different in their rules for home schooling. maybe the person who home schooled you wasn't certified as a teacher? you should look into getting a GED. it is just as good as a diploma. i wish iraq had never happened. what is going on over there is a blight on the honor of this great country. what is happening to young americans over there has opened up some psychological wounds that i thought were long healed. i have never thought you were stupid - very few people qualify as outright dumb. i just wanted you to realize that american soldiers should never act in the manner that it seems some of them have in iraq. they should know better. i have a very different background from you that is for sure. i have a BA in anthropology and a PhD in classical studies from the university of cincinnati. used to teach at UC for a bit. most of my highbrow colleauges thought i was nuts for loving horror movies and zombie movies in particular. appreciate the fact that you want to keep this civil. one tom on the board was enough. speaking of tom, some of his meltdowns were classic and i wish i had saved the posts, strictly for entertainment value. 601 views of this thread? someone should check that out. that has to be some kind of record.

[EvilNed]

Underwear on their heads? The torture executed by the U.S. goverment goes way beyond that. Imagine being picked on 24/7. Imagine being splashed with cold water in the middle of the night, every night. Imagine never getting any sleep. Imagine being kept in isolation for weeks on end without even knowing why. That's the kind of torture being conducted. It may not look harsh on paper, but believe me, when you are constantly exposed to this you'll crack. You'll get psychological problems for life. You'll never be yourself again. I'm not here to defend the actions of those brutals who killed Nick Berg. I'm just pretty surprised at how you can ignore this part of the deal. Maybe you didn't know, which is alright. But now you do.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Underwear on their heads? The torture executed by the U.S. goverment goes way beyond that. Each day brings more information about the appalling abuses inflicted upon men and women held by the United States in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere around the world. U.S. forces have used interrogation techniques including hooding, stripping detainees naked, subjecting them to extremes of heat, cold, noise and light, and depriving them of sleep—in violation of the Geneva Conventions and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. This apparently routine infliction of pain, discomfort, and humiliation has expanded in all too many cases into vicious beatings, sexual degradation, sodomy, near drowning, and near asphyxiation. Detainees have died under questionable circumstances while incarcerated. http://hrw.org/campaigns/torture.htm

[kortick]

well the obvious thing is the war has divided this country it is a very unique situation where there is good and bad on both sides we have no control over what happens this event has to be played out to its own ending we cant withdraw we cant win quickly the only sure thing is there will be much more death, torture, and debates for a long time to come things are only gonna get worse from here it wont be long before china and russia make thier moves in regards to iran and north korea and taiwan this is just a prelude....

[Mike70]

well the obvious thing is the war has divided this country it is a very unique situation where there is good and bad on both sides we have no control over what happens this event has to be played out to its own ending we cant withdraw we cant win quickly the only sure thing is there will be much more death, torture, and debates for a long time to come things are only gonna get worse from here it wont be long before china and russia make thier moves in regards to iran and north korea and taiwan this is just a prelude.... dude, i love the way you post. you are the mad minstrel of HPOTD. what meter do you prefer?

[Arcades057]

sorry that your homeschooling didn't qualify for a diploma. what state do you live in? they are all different in their rules for home schooling. maybe the person who home schooled you wasn't certified as a teacher? you should look into getting a GED. it is just as good as a diploma. What I have is just as good as a GED. That was part of what kept me from the Army. The felonies and the GED didn't add up to qualify me and at the time it's not worth going through getting the college credits to join (seeing as I make more money now than I would then, and I'm not worried about being tossed in the brig for refusing to make myself a target). The state was FL; the program was ICS, which is basically you are your own teacher. Even came with the answer guide, so it's no real surprise that it's not honored anymore. i wish iraq had never happened. what is going on over there is a blight on the honor of this great country. what is happening to young americans over there has opened up some psychological wounds that i thought were long healed. Agreed. When the Dems call this Vietnam I can't but agree in part. We fought Vietnam with one hand tied behind our backs from a half world away. We're doing the same here. If we were fighting to win the war, it'd be done by now. Instead we're going to expose our soldiers to endless atrition and eventually have a scene like the Huey on the Saigon embassy to remember the war by. Sorry about the wounds, also hope nothing has opened up on this post. Personally I haven't thought about Joe (the second OD) in a year or more. i have never thought you were stupid - very few people qualify as outright dumb. i just wanted you to realize that american soldiers should never act in the manner that it seems some of them have in iraq. they should know better When a cop breaks the law and smashes some handcuffed 16 year old kid's face while he's the back of his squadcar, he should face more severe penalties than, say, some angry 17 year old who smashes some other kid's face. The same can be said about the military. If the soldiers in question really did torture ANYONE, they deserve harsh punishment. That soils the image of EVERY American, just as it soils the image of every Iraqi when one act of barbarism is commited. i have a very different background from you that is for sure. i have a BA in anthropology and a PhD in classical studies from the university of cincinnati. used to teach at UC for a bit. most of my highbrow colleauges thought i was nuts for loving horror movies and zombie movies in particular. No way, a liberal who taught college?! Kidding, kidding... Seriously though, you have far more patience than I. No way could I teach kids of any age. I have a hard enough time teaching adults how to do their job. appreciate the fact that you want to keep this civil. one tom on the board was enough. speaking of tom, some of his meltdowns were classic and i wish i had saved the posts, strictly for entertainment value. I always try keeping things civil; even did with Tom. There are only a few people who truly make me lose my temper and then it's only because a) I find them to be repugnant and lying, or b) just regurgitating stupid things that they heard on Fahrenheir 911 or Bowling for Columbine. And Tom... the endless gun debates, the constant racism (racism against anyone not white from an ASIAN, I tell you), the constant homosexual inuendo... Those were the days... 601 views of this thread? someone should check that out. that has to be some kind of record. I think we should get some kind of prize for this. You and me kept this going for a while. Neil, you can send me the Ultimate Fighter Season 1 boxed set, please. Email me for my address....