TWD Season 11-B & 11-C discussion... **ROLLING SPOILERS**

[JDP]

And yet you've never argued that Dawn takes place after Day or Land. Because that's the kind of very flimsy argumentation that you actually try to use for such discussions. To me it just shows that some of the zombies seem a bit "smarter" than the average. I don't jump to conclusions regarding any nonexistent evidence for any "progression". Big Daddy's progression is all witnessed in his actions. None of which were outside the scope of what we see "Bub" and even zombified Stephen do. Had he been coaxed into speaking lessons by some crazed scientist then he'd have no doubt managed to learn short sentences and then use them at his own will. Thankfully we didn't see that, but it could have happened. By the same token, had "Bub" had had the chance to keep interacting with other zombies we would no doubt have also seen him manage to "lead" the other zombies to places. - - - Updated - - - Cholo ain't that smart though is he? If he had a bit of nous, he would have figured that Kauffman was playing him for a sap a long time ago. All Cholo can see is that money is his way out, which is why he's doing Kauffman's dirty work and hoping to get enough so he can get a flat in Fiddler's Green and live like the "other half" do. He doesn't really know that there isn't any other enclaves like Fiddler's Green out there. How could he. He has no real idea that money, in all probability, can't buy him what he needs in another part of the country. But in the words of Peter from 'Dawn of the Dead', you never know. Plus, clinging to the old world is all that he understands. In addition, money is what makes Fiddler's Green go around as per Kauffman's oligarchic mechanisations. But Cholo is at the bottom of the ladder and has been all his life, even before the shit hit the fan. He only sees money as his way up that ladder, not recognising that all the time the guy at the top of the ladder will be the one to kick it away as soon as he takes the first step up. It was the basic essence of Romero's allegory for Fiddler's Green in the first place. Cholo is certainly smart enough to have given Kaufman "a run for his money" (pun fully intended.) He stole his "super-vehicle" and then threatened to blow his headquarters to smithereens with it if he is not paid what he demands. This brings us back to the main issue: why is Cholo demanding money, and not something like food, ammo and medical supplies? If money only has value in Kaufman's turf, his plan is beyond moronic and totally self-defeating, as he won't be able to use it anywhere else except the very places where he has become a "wanted" man. And yes, Cholo knows that there are other outposts out there that Kaufman does not control. One of them is specifically mentioned in the movie. So, he must be aware that he can use that money elsewhere other than Kaufman's. The whole plot of the movie does not make any iota of sense if that was not the case. Kaufman himself could easily put Cholo in his place simply by telling him: "Listen, you dolt, what the hell are you going to do with all that money? Where are you going to be able to use it except in my domains, you moron!" But we don't see Kaufman or his cronies using such arguments when Cholo issues the threat and demand. Some want Kaufman to pay him the money, while Kaufman refuses to do so. Nobody points out that Cholo's actions do not make any sense whatsoever. They take the guy and his demand for money very seriously. So, not only do Cholo's actions clearly imply that money must still have value outside of Kaufman's turf, but even the reactions of Kaufman & company also imply the same. Unless you also want to argue that Cholo isn't the only one who isn't very smart, but even Kaufman & company aren't that smart or aware of the situation either!

[Neil]

I don't understand why some people cannot get their head around the money thing either. Kaufmann's entire raison d'etre is the establishment of a new order based on the old norms with him at the helm of course. The fact that he's using old world currency as a viable trade commodity in Fiddler's Green makes sense. Outside of the city, of course, the money is worthless. But inside the confines of the city walls, it can still be used to buy stuff and the denizens of the Green are slaves to it in their various social strata. As long as people are willing to trade using a currency, it'll be a viable option. Because people need only find the bucket loads of money in local shops, businesses, banks, security trucks, under mattresses etc and return to the city to now be one of the richest people... There's so much of it outside the Green, it's value in the Green is uncontrollable.

[JDP]

Because people need only find the bucket loads of money in local shops, businesses, banks, security trucks, under mattresses etc and return to the city to now be one of the richest people... There's so much of it outside the Green, it's value in the Green is uncontrollable. That's assuming that there is much of it still left out there within easy grasp at the time the movie takes place. Since money still has value at this point, it is safe to assume that looters have already appropriated a lot of it. Like we see the bikers do in Dawn, for example. By the time of the events in Day, though, evidently money is just pretty much useless stuff that no one still left around bothers with anymore. It no longer has any use.

[MinionZombie]

Let's not forget this is the thread for TWD, yeah? 11x20:   Enjoyed seeing Lance killed off, that grubby bugger. Hopefully we'll see him shambling around the wasteland somewhere. Seems our captured chums are heading to some sort of forced labour camp ... wonder if anyone else might be there. Hey, wouldn't it be random if Heath suddenly showed up after all these years? Only four episodes left. ... Somebody's been watching a lot of Buster Keaton movies lately. How'd you guess? I just watched two of his films these past couple of days. "Sherlock Jr." and "Seven Chances". They're on Prime/FreeVee. Watched "The General" recently as well. Buster's my guy from the silent era. Because people need only find the bucket loads of money in local shops, businesses, banks, security trucks, under mattresses etc and return to the city to now be one of the richest people... There's so much of it outside the Green, it's value in the Green is uncontrollable. Assuming said money hasn't already been half-inched by other people, likely in the early days of the zombie apocalypse - so local shops and businesses would probably have empty registers. Under mattresses? What is this, the 1920s? Also - which mattresses? You're going to roam from home to home with zombies everywhere? Come on now. Security trucks ... not as easy as you might think, and that's assuming you can even find one. I'd imagine as things were crumbling there'd not be many (or any) security trucks going around picking up cash, especially if robberies were on the increase (which, again, would be quite likely). They'd probably cancel any pick ups 'for the time being', not realising that the end of civilisation was coming. As for banks - you'd need to know how to open the vault. Do you know how to do that? Nope, and most people don't either, do they?

[Neil]

Let's not forget this is the thread for TWD, yeah? 11x20:   Enjoyed seeing Lance killed off, that grubby bugger. Hopefully we'll see him shambling around the wasteland somewhere. Seems our captured chums are heading to some sort of forced labour camp ... wonder if anyone else might be there. Hey, wouldn't it be random if Heath suddenly showed up after all these years? Only four episodes left. Yeh, going to have to move quickly now... Enjoying it.

[shootemindehead]

Cholo is certainly smart enough to have given Kaufman "a run for his money" (pun fully intended.) He stole his "super-vehicle" and then threatened to blow his headquarters to smithereens with it if he is not paid what he demands. This brings us back to the main issue: why is Cholo demanding money, and not something like food, ammo and medical supplies? If money only has value in Kaufman's turf, his plan is beyond moronic and totally self-defeating, as he won't be able to use it anywhere else except the very places where he has become a "wanted" man. And yes, Cholo knows that there are other outposts out there that Kaufman does not control. One of them is specifically mentioned in the movie. So, he must be aware that he can use that money elsewhere other than Kaufman's. The whole plot of the movie does not make any iota of sense if that was not the case. Kaufman himself could easily put Cholo in his place simply by telling him: "Listen, you dolt, what the hell are you going to do with all that money? Where are you going to be able to use it except in my domains, you moron!" But we don't see Kaufman or his cronies using such arguments when Cholo issues the threat and demand. Some want Kaufman to pay him the money, while Kaufman refuses to do so. Nobody points out that Cholo's actions do not make any sense whatsoever. They take the guy and his demand for money very seriously. So, not only do Cholo's actions clearly imply that money must still have value outside of Kaufman's turf, but even the reactions of Kaufman & company also imply the same. Unless you also want to argue that Cholo isn't the only one who isn't very smart, but even Kaufman & company aren't that smart or aware of the situation either! There's fuck all smart about nicking a car, nor is there anything especially smart about blowing the crap out of the only enclave for miles around that has the ability to defend itself. Cholo is a bloody moron and morons tend to do stupid things. Demanding money in the hope that it might be of value somewhere else, even if he could find somewhere else, is exactly the type of thing a moron like Cholo would do. Because that's his be all/end all way of thinking. The contrast between him and the smarter Riley Dembo couldn't be clearer. If Cholo could only let his obsession with money go, he could have simply headed to Canada like Dembo wanted to. Although why Denbo wants to go to Canada is never confirmed AFAIR. But Cholo probably thinks that he can set up somewhere else and do what Kaufmann did in Fiddler's Green. Kaufmann, when he does a runner after Big Daddy's gang makes their assault is, more than likely, thinking the same thing. After all he's done it once already. Also, it's only YOU who is seeing any kind of implications in 'Land of the Dead' that there's other places still using money. There's absolutely nothing on the screen that confirms your interpretations, though, and no dialogue to suggest that there's anywhere else even intact, never mind employing cash like Fiddler's Green does. There might well be. In fact Kaufmann may have set up other safe areas like he did with the Green. But nothing in the film supports that in any way. - - - Updated - - - Because people need only find the bucket loads of money in local shops, businesses, banks, security trucks, under mattresses etc and return to the city to now be one of the richest people... There's so much of it outside the Green, it's value in the Green is uncontrollable. Well, as the others have said, this assumes that it hasn't already been taken by other people when the shit hit the fan. Untitled-1.jpg

[MinionZombie]

Although why Denbo wants to go to Canada is never confirmed AFAIR. Also, it's only YOU who is seeing any kind of implications in 'Land of the Dead' that there's other places still using money. There's absolutely nothing on the screen that confirms your interpretations, though, and no dialogue to suggest that there's anywhere else even intact, never mind employing cash like Fiddler's Green does. There might well be. In fact Kaufmann may have set up other safe areas like he did with the Green. But nothing in the film supports that in any way. 1) I believe the idea is that it'd be much less populated by zombies than the USA. Plus, the colder weather - so frozen zombies or it'd turn away zombies - but a lower population would also mean fewer zombies anyway (not so much food, they wander off etc). 2) I'm pretty sure Kauffman mentions that he set up other similar locations (at least one, if not two or three). I also seem to recall that there is mention that they lost contact with one or more, for what reason we don't know. I also think that Kauffman's initial plan in escaping is to head to one of the other locations in his modest network of 'safe cities'.

[JDP]

There's fuck all smart about nicking a car, nor is there anything especially smart about blowing the crap out of the only enclave for miles around that has the ability to defend itself. Cholo is a bloody moron and morons tend to do stupid things. Demanding money in the hope that it might be of value somewhere else, even if he could find somewhere else, is exactly the type of thing a moron like Cholo would do. Because that's his be all/end all way of thinking. The contrast between him and the smarter Riley Dembo couldn't be clearer. If Cholo could only let his obsession with money go, he could have simply headed to Canada like Dembo wanted to. Although why Denbo wants to go to Canada is never confirmed AFAIR. But Cholo probably thinks that he can set up somewhere else and do what Kaufmann did in Fiddler's Green. Kaufmann, when he does a runner after Big Daddy's gang makes their assault is, more than likely, thinking the same thing. After all he's done it once already. Oh, yes, Riley, who wants to go all the way into the Canadian wilderness in... a regular car, no less! Yes, "brilliant" plan, really. Notice the surprised reaction of Kaufman when he learns of Riley's weird "plan" and requests. Very different from his reaction to Cholo's, whom he takes very seriously and does not want to grant his demand by any means. Riley's is hilariously easy to fulfill, so he readily accepts that one. It doesn't bother Kaufman at all. If Riley is crazy enough to want to take such a chance, let him; it's his neck he is risking, not anyone else's. Nothing in this movie suggests that Cholo is an idiot who is not aware of what the current situation is. He is a greedy fellow, but definitely not a retard. He would not be demanding money if he wasn't sure he could use it in a way that Kaufman cannot interfere with afterwards, and the only way that can happen is if money can also be used in areas outside of Kaufman's control. Also, it's only YOU who is seeing any kind of implications in 'Land of the Dead' that there's other places still using money. There's absolutely nothing on the screen that confirms your interpretations, though, and no dialogue to suggest that there's anywhere else even intact, never mind employing cash like Fiddler's Green does. There might well be. In fact Kaufmann may have set up other safe areas like he did with the Green. But nothing in the film supports that in any way. It seems like it is rather YOU who doesn't want to see the implications in all of what we see in this movie regarding money and people's desire & actions to possess and control it, which only make sense if money still has value in many places, not just some isolated enclave. The implications are most certainly there, and not only in Cholo's actions, but those of Kaufman & company as well. Who, BTW, definitely have set up other areas also under their control. This is not any "speculation" or even a necessary implication, it is clearly established in the movie. Plus the fact that there also are other places out there that are not run by Kaufman & company is clearly implied in the movie as well.

[shootemindehead]

1) I believe the idea is that it'd be much less populated by zombies than the USA. Plus, the colder weather - so frozen zombies or it'd turn away zombies - but a lower population would also mean fewer zombies anyway (not so much food, they wander off etc). 2) I'm pretty sure Kauffman mentions that he set up other similar locations (at least one, if not two or three). I also seem to recall that there is mention that they lost contact with one or more, for what reason we don't know. I also think that Kauffman's initial plan in escaping is to head to one of the other locations in his modest network of 'safe cities'. Yeh, maybe that's it. I remember reading a bio of Kauffman years ago and it stated that he had used his clout to set up a number of safe zones years before the events of 'Land of the Dead'. But I couldn't recall whether these were still in operation. I sorta remembered vaguely that it's said in a bit of dialogue that comms were out with one of them. But I wasn't sure. - - - Updated - - - Oh, yes, Riley, who wants to go all the way into the Canadian wilderness in... a regular car, no less! Yes, "brilliant" plan, really. Notice the surprised reaction of Kaufman when he learns of Riley's weird "plan" and requests. Very different from his reaction to Cholo's, whom he takes very seriously and does not want to grant his demand by any means. Riley's is hilariously easy to fulfill, so he readily accepts that one. It doesn't bother Kaufman at all. If Riley is crazy enough to want to take such a chance, let him; it's his neck he is risking, not anyone else's. Nothing in this movie suggests that Cholo is an idiot who is not aware of what the current situation is. He is a greedy fellow, but definitely not a retard. He would not be demanding money if he wasn't sure he could use it in a way that Kaufman cannot interfere with afterwards, and the only way that can happen is if money can also be used in areas outside of Kaufman's control. It seems like it is rather YOU who doesn't want to see the implications in all of what we see in this movie regarding money and people's desire & actions to possess and control it, which only make sense if money still has value in many places, not just some isolated enclave. The implications are most certainly there, and not only in Cholo's actions, but those of Kaufman & company as well. Who, BTW, definitely have set up other areas also under their control. This is not any "speculation" or even a necessary implication, it is clearly established in the movie. Plus the fact that there also are other places out there that are not run by Kaufman & company is clearly implied in the movie as well. Whatever. You can have things your way and see what you want to see. The rest of us will just watch the actual film.

[JDP]

Whatever. You can have things your way and see what you want to see. The rest of us will just watch the actual film. Which you should actually do, as you obviously are not remembering it well. PS: on top of what has already been pointed out, Cholo isn't even acting alone, he has several accomplices, none of which question or point out any supposed futility in his plans, except Foxy, and you know what is his only worry about the whole thing? That "Kaufman might not pay", LOL! Foxy is not worried at all about where are they going to go to next to be able to use that money, he's worried that greedy ol' Kaufman is just not gonna let go of all that dough even under the threat of blowing up "his castle". I guess you will also try to argue that the entire cast of characters must also be a bunch of idiots who are not aware that money only has value in Kaufman's turf.

[shootemindehead]

I guess you will also try to argue that the entire cast of characters must also be a bunch of idiots who are not aware that money only has value in Kaufman's turf. I'm done trying to argue anything with you, because you always drag things down to a ridiculous level that borders on the autistic and you're incapable of even hearing anyone else's point. Trying to talk with you about this crap is like trying to have a discussion with a donkey. At the end of the day, as I said to you, you're welcome to see things how you want to see them.

[JDP]

I'm done trying to argue anything with you, because you always drag things down to a ridiculous level that borders on the autistic and you're incapable of even hearing anyone else's point. Trying to talk with you about this crap is like trying to have a discussion with a donkey. At the end of the day, as I said to you, you're welcome to see things how you want to see them. Ironic post, as it actually rather fits you first and foremost than to anyone else. You simply keep stubbornly refusing to listen to very straightforward and not difficult at all to follow logic and common sense when it comes to this topic. The type of argument that you are trying to defend here is simply untenable. We would have to assume that not only is Cholo basically an unbelievable moron without any fundamental grasp of the situation, but also a whole bunch of other characters as well. I repeat: NONE of the other characters directly involved in this part of the plot find any such fundamental flaw in Cholo's demand for money, and that can only happen if Kaufman is NOT the only guy around who has control of a money based economy. Cholo would be majorly screwed if that wasn't the case, the money he demands would be useless to him, he can't use it in exchange for goods & services anywhere but in territories controlled by Kaufman, the very man who has put a price on his head, and this would also be very self-evident to anyone else involved in such a situation, including Kaufman himself, who would not hesitate to take advantage of it. He would have Cholo "by the balls" with his very own absurd and self-defeating demand for something that only Kaufman himself has any use and control of. There are no "ifs" or "buts" here. Just the facts, Jack. "Don't shoot the messenger!"

[shootemindehead]

[JDP]

Yep, you still refusing to acknowledge the obvious.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, yeh...you keep going there Eeyore. Annnywaaaay, back to the topic at hand... Just finished the latest episodes of TWD and the backend of FTWD and you couldn't have a bigger contrast. Whereas TWD has actually increased in quality, FTWD continues its spiral downwards into some serious WTF territory, especially where characters are concerned. It can never be said that character motivations in TWD have ever always made perfect sense, but in FTWD they're just mind boggling at this point. I still have no idea what the writers were going for with Strand and Alicia is all over the place too. Although to be fair she's been battling a crazy fever. Plus the obsession with giving her identity weapons is fiercely annoying. First she had that never ended gun barrel thingy and now she had a little blade attached to her severed arm (not to mention she kept the bones of her severed arm attached to it...ugh). BUT...FTWD S07 ended with one of the best episodes that it has ever done, which only goes to increase the sheer frustration that I have with the show. Out of the mediocre and downright awful, it can turn out genuine gems. But if the trend of the series continues, it'll shit the bed again in S08. TWD I have been very lukewarm on for a number of series now and character wise the only people I think are worth watching are Carol (who's the series best) and Maggie. Everyone else is an also ran, with some of them not even making that cut. But story wise it's made an effort to dig upwards. Hopefully it can continue and go out with a logical and satisfying conclusion, even if it'll be an inevitable whimper in the grand scheme of things. I just cannot see TWD doing anything but fizzling out, but even then that's not always a bad thing.