TWD 3x14 "Prey" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Aye, this is what I'm talking about. Let's keep this going for the rest of the season (and beyond, of course) - get some spicy moral and "what if" questions thrown into the mix.

[Wyldwraith]

That's the problem Minion, So many of the plot devices-in-motion take the air out of debate because of what we've seen of the writers demands. As plausible as my argument that at least SOME of the Woodbury residents would resort to armed rebellion rather than be forced beyond the walls into a conflict they know next to nothing about, with only the most minimal training, AFTER months of the Governor conditioning them that the Outside is dangerous/deadly, and thus they need his protection from it....the out-of-show knowledge that the writers will NEVER, not one chance in a million, write anything that directly prevents the Governor from attempting his ambush at the second meeting, or a later all-out assault using the Woodbury citizens as cannon fodder....tends to kill debate on the issue. Fiat-style plot devices, of which there are four major ones in play at the moment, which collectively turn the outcomes of the last couple episodes into an all but foregone conclusion. We can't enjoyably speculate on what the Governor's against-his-own months of conditioning of the Woodbury folks now demands they do exactly what he's conditioned them NOT to do. It's an A-or-B choice. EITHER they rebel and refuse to be used as the cannon fodder they KNOW they're being put into position to be...which would anticlimactically eliminate the Governor and Martinez in a manner the writers would never allow, OR the disabled, the aged and the timid/traumatized...unsuitable for acting as survivors beyond the walls one and all or even collectively, blindly follow the Governor's dictates and allow themselves to be used as the aforementioned cannon fodder. In a two-choice fork, with one fork blocked off by out-of-show knowledge that the writers won't allow the Woodbury threat to die a non-epic death...where's the room for differing viewpoints? About the only thing that can still be debated there is the level of influence the Governor still wields among the civilian inhabitants. Some here seem to believe the Governor's hold on them is alive and well, others like me see the extreme abandonment, and then reappearing only to forcibly conscript pretty much everyone older than 7 and younger than 80+, provide the most bare-bones of training (With 37 individuals the Governor can't allow them anything like the proper # of rounds-per-person to develop a basic proficiency with the weapon. 20-round mags, figure at the BAREST MINIMUM 10 magazines expended by EACH of these no-knowledge-of-assault-rifle-having civilians to develop the most rudimentary of accuracy...200 rounds per person multiplied by 37 = 7400 rounds gone even in this barest-bones training), and THEN going against his own months of hard work in convincing these people that for them to go beyond the walls is a death sentence by suddenly doing an about-face and pretty much saying "Ignore all that stuff I've been telling you for months about Outside...you'll be fine, really." People like me look at that situation and just can't see how a rebellion would fail to erupt if and when he gives the order for them to move out. Again, it's an either-or choice. Either you believe the Governor still has super-mind-control powers over the people of Woodbury, or you believe that the Governor's own previous fearmongering about Outside would panic the people when he tried to move them out. It's a fairly hard-and-fast camp of decision-making...and I just don't see a creative in-between providing room for debate between the adherents of these two polar-opposite reads of what's happened and will happen onscreen. Besides which, due to Andrea's improbable capture, this Sunday's offering is a known placeholder during which things don't move forward with regard to the conflict. So that leaves the finale to even BEGIN the fighting. Unless I'm VERY MUCH mistaken in how they intend to have Team Prison spend a ton of time discussing that idiotic Michonne-ultimatum + Herschel trying for a third (or is it fourth) time to convince Merle to mend his ways and embark on a quest to prove himself to the group. Given the 16-18 minutes of commercials, 44-42 minutes doesn't allow for a lot beyond Team Prison's melodrama and a flashover to the Governor preliminary-screwing with Andrea by what will likely be a no-physical-harm sadistic fear-tease of a first visit to the torture room. Speaking of not much time left: Given the aforementioned time wasting that will go on at the Prison this Sunday, and only the finale to go after that, plus finally their love of leaving many core plotlines unresolved in addition to the primary cliffhanger...there's not a lot of reason to expect ANY plot-movement this Sunday, and only the first stirrings come the finale. Now if it was a 2-hour finale we might have room for things to get well under way before the cliffhanger arrived...but as it stands my bet is the finale will deal with the 2nd meeting and the Governor's intended ambush. Again, nothing really ambiguous there. I'm sorry to be a negative Nancy, but they just AREN'T GIVING US the sticky unknowns and might-be's that we've received in the previous seasons. Everything is hyper-fiat-controlled...it reminds me of the old side-scrolling arcade games.

[Morto Vivente]

1) Thoughts on Allen & Ben? Are they complete wankers, or do they have a legitimate point of view? Allen and Ben should be dubbed the Wankers of Woodbury. Even if they knew the Governor's secrets and schemes they'd still kiss his arse and do whatever he commanded. IMO Ben is terrified and looking to his father to make his choices for him. It's the z-apocalypse and Allen is having a pissing competition with Tyreese because at some stage he saved his wife’s life instead of him, talk about an inferiority complex. If Allen became a walker it would be an improvement; at least his IQ would increase. The guy's a complete muppet who can’t see past the end of his nose. Tyreese seems like a reliable type to face the apocalypse with. The fact that he was unwilling to betray team prison when they had the chance would lead me to think I can trust this guy for now. In contrast Allen was prepared to try and take the prison by force, he obviously believes that the end justifies the means. Allen belongs with the Governor, they're both weak and have lost whatever degree of humanity they had. I feel sorry for Ben having a moron as a role model. In some ways his chances of survival would be greater without his father, he may even end up dead because of him. Ben just doesn’t see it, or doesn’t want to see it, at least not so far. This is why I love drama in an apocalyptic setting, especially the zombie variety. In theory, what choices would we like to make in a maximum stress situation ? IMO Allen and Ben is a case of the blind leading the blind.

[MinionZombie]

Allen and Ben should be dubbed the Wankers of Woodbury. I love that. I remember Allen being very weak and unpredictable in the comics, so his television counterpart makes sense, but damn, he's really unlikeable.

[Wyldwraith]

Perhaps I'll try to come at it from a more positive up front angle: @Minion: What do you envision this Sunday's episode encompassing, and why? Also, do you agree/disagree that the citizens of Woodbury would choose rebellion over being thrust into an unknown conflict, with next-to-no training, which many of them are physically and/or emotionally/psychologically incapable of taking part in said conflict? In either case, what's your rationale in light of the Governor's recent negative actions/uncaring demeanor that supports why you feel they'd go along with the ill-fated assault or not? Given that what they themselves have witnessed, and having detected the Governor's lies about the captured Walkers are only in play as a fear-generating bluff (Which Tyreese obviously didn't buy)...and seeing the preparations for Woodbury to launch a war of annihilation continue to escalate, is Tyreese/Sasha's ties to Allen/Ben strong enough to convince them to remain and take part in the war on Woodbury's side despite knowing the Governor has lied to them about his intentions, plus the means he is willing to use to succeed? Would they instead go over the wall on guard duty, take more direct action against this obviously evil assault, or continue to go along to get along? Either way, why? So far as the Prison defense: Given only 1 fence separates the prison from the few dozen Walkers outside, given the Governor's proven capacity of smashing fences, and given the giant all-access pass to interested Walkers and humans alike that the smashed open rear of the prison is...doesn't it make sense to take the fight somewhere the Governor hasn't prepared for weeks to take?

[MinionZombie]

Gave it a second viewing, as I do with all episodes, on Fox UK last night and can I just say - thank heavens they've changed the "Joop!" advert. It's still ruddy Joop!, but they're briefer, don't have annoying music, or annoying slogans ("Real men wear pink" - as if ), or annoying, smug, man-child faces gawping at you as some undernourished random female slithers about his scrawny form. 3x14 has been the weakest episode of this back-half, but I still enjoyed it. I think the issue is the layout and structuring of the back half. 3x09 through 3x12 are all sorted, but as I've said before I feel that 3x13 and 3x14 could have been a single episode's worth of content ... but ... in order to do that, you'd have to restructure the entire back-half of the season. However, with these rumours circling Mazzara's departure, I'm totally confident that this is a temporary glitch. Some ideas regarding 3x14 - the opening teaser with Michonne and Andrea in the woods was a pointless flashback. Teasing us with who Michonne's pets were could have been placed elsewhere, and earlier (they were heads in a fishtank very quickly and haven't been in the plot for a long time at this point), even though I did like the chain link. The establishment of the torture room could have been condensed right down to close up details and a just hands laying out the tools - that's a more elusive and suspenseful image/way to cover that scene. I think someone mentioned 'why did Tyreese blow his top at Allen' - well, Allen's a massive twat, wouldn't you want to punch him? However, as I remember him from the comics, Tyreese has a temper - he's been known to explode - and I feel that came across in the subtext when Tyreese said it wouldn't happen again. I think it's something he's done before, and it's an inner demon for him. Did anyone else notice the crash mat (when Andrea jumps down from the barricade), and the wobbly tree (when Andrea's getting attacked by walkers)? Speaking of which, I'd have staged that scene differently - rather than the 'out of frame' cheat that is common practice in all horror filmmaking, I'd have established that she already knew - and we knew - that walkers were in the woods by the roadside, but that it's better for her to hide in there than get caught on the open road. It would then be a case of Andrea have to wait as the truck slowly tootles by - all as the walkers get nearer and nearer to her (you could still trap her like they did in the show) as she has to remain still and quiet - then the truck drives off just as she's set upon and then continue as-is. A slight readjustment. The direction of the plot - as in the events happening, character arcs etc are basically all dandy in my view - it's the layout and structuring of those events that has been uneven in some parts of this back half. Not an awful situation by any means, but a situation they'll definitely be adjusting course for in season 4 under Gimple's leadership. The events still work, it's just that sometimes how they're enacted in the script could use a tweak, or similarly in the direction of the scene. Issues, certainly, but nothing dreadful. Anyway - those were just some thoughts that sprang to mind after my second viewing of it last night, but instead of going around the same loop we've been through before, I'll jump on Wyld's questions... Perhaps I'll try to come at it from a more positive up front angle: @Minion: What do you envision this Sunday's episode encompassing, and why? Also, do you agree/disagree that the citizens of Woodbury would choose rebellion over being thrust into an unknown conflict, with next-to-no training, which many of them are physically and/or emotionally/psychologically incapable of taking part in said conflict? In either case, what's your rationale in light of the Governor's recent negative actions/uncaring demeanor that supports why you feel they'd go along with the ill-fated assault or not? I feel that the Woodburyites are essentially living in fear (of themselves, of each other, of the outside world, of anyone seeking to do them harm from the outside, of the walkers, of general danger), so some might choose rebellion (e.g. Milton, Andrea), while others will fear losing the comforts and safety that Woodbury has afforded them - at some point in their time in the apocalypse they will have had to fight, so many of them will be up for defending themselves if they really have to - and The Governor is crafting an image that they really have to defend themselves/go on the attack. Team Prison has been painted as terrorists by The Governor, and as far as most of Woodbury's residents are concerned, these are bad people who want to either kill them or take what they have. Regardless of truly being emotionally/pyschologically/physically capable of fighting - if they have to fight, they'll have to fight. That's clearly the message coming forth from The Governor. It boils down to basic human instinct - kill or be killed, mob rule, go with the flow, keep your head down and try and let the more skilled fighters do the heavy work. However, clearly many residents of Woodbury are armed (see Martinez taking weapons off the residents in his wheelbarrow of guns), which means a lot of them are already capable of fighting - plus we've not been privy to their training/preparation. In terms of Sunday's episode, I can't really say beyond some basic, sketchy theories...   This is the "two days later" meeting - I feel the structure should have been end of 3x13 "we're meeting in two days" then start of 3x14, BOOM, two days later and we're at the meeting ... ... anyway ... the previews seem a bit confusing, but they are only previews and out-of-context, but it seems that the handing over of Michonne is on the cards? I'm wondering if they've clued her in on it and she's going along with it to try and assassinate him like a trojan horse situation. Just a theory. The previews I've seen have suggested a little more action - a bit more propulsion. Surely we'll have a scene between a bound Andrea and The Governor ... but yeah, it's hard to say. I think there'll be some action, but the episode will probably end on a big old cock tease of a cliffhanger with war about to commence - then the finale will be a full-on war for 1/2 to 3/4 of the episode, with a breather at the end to assess the damage and tease season four. Given that what they themselves have witnessed, and having detected the Governor's lies about the captured Walkers are only in play as a fear-generating bluff (Which Tyreese obviously didn't buy)...and seeing the preparations for Woodbury to launch a war of annihilation continue to escalate, is Tyreese/Sasha's ties to Allen/Ben strong enough to convince them to remain and take part in the war on Woodbury's side despite knowing the Governor has lied to them about his intentions, plus the means he is willing to use to succeed? Would they instead go over the wall on guard duty, take more direct action against this obviously evil assault, or continue to go along to get along? Either way, why? Damn these questions are long... I belive that Tyreese/Sasha and Allen/Ben's bond is fairly weak when it comes down to it. They'd probably try and convince them otherwise, but I feel Allen and Ben are too far gone - they're willing to kill children and a baby for crying out loud, just so they can have a warm bed to sleep in, whereas Tyreese and Sasha are not. I feel that T/S could turn their allegiance back to Team Prison in two ways - escape to the Prison and help out from there, or turn on Woodbury from the inside of the battle on Woodbury's flanks. I don't think T&S will "go along to get along" ... A&B on the other hand, I have no faith in them whatsoever to do the right thing. So far as the Prison defense: Given only 1 fence separates the prison from the few dozen Walkers outside, given the Governor's proven capacity of smashing fences, and given the giant all-access pass to interested Walkers and humans alike that the smashed open rear of the prison is...doesn't it make sense to take the fight somewhere the Governor hasn't prepared for weeks to take? You mean like a battlefield elsewhere? How would they know where to go? What about baby Judith? I think it's best to either flee entirely, or defend your turf. There's no real point in blocking the busted out part of the fence (they could drive a truck through another part if they blocked the path of the opening with the prison bus, for example). It'll be more like a siege - think Straw Dogs - or something like that. Woodbury has limited directions of attack (although I think a strong team of fighters will be guided into the gaping hole in the back by fucktard Allen and Ben), and most of the fight will be like a traditional battlefield with two sides advancing on each other (or rather one static in a strong position - a castle, if you will - as the other advances and tries to breach their defences). If the Governor can prepare, so can the Ricktatorship (and we've seen some of the preparations). Taking it elsewhere would be a strange thing, but it would also be far riskier for Team Prison - they'd be in a far weaker spot.

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm, I don't agree that the Governor's painting of Team Prison as terrorists they need to defend themselves against would overwhelm concerns like "He's forcing my asthmatic son, or he's forcing my elderly family members into a brutal life-or-death struggle OUT THERE...when, if things are truly as he says, we could far more safely continue the training/organizing and just defend Woodbury against any incursions." It's not the Governor's insistence they all be trained to work as a militia that I think would touch off a revolt, it's the obviousness that him forcing the Woodbury people to take the fight to the enemy ISN'T ABOUT DEFENSE. Even look at the raid(s) on Woodbury: Very fast in-and-outs, with the only casualties being those who directly sought out battle with the "terrorists" seeking to spring first Glenn/Maggie, and then Daryl/Merle. Hardly supporting evidence of the Governor's declaration that they want to wipe Woodbury out, and thus Woodbury must preemptively wipe THEM out to prevent that. This seems like it might be another of those we'll have to agree to disagree, because as things stand I believe the Woodbury residents' fears for the vulnerable/ill-equipped individuals the Governor has conscripted are CONCRETE fears...whereas the picture the Governor paints is of POSSIBLE things to fear. Basically, the Woodbury residents know the terrorists MIGHT come back. Though there's reason for them to believe said "terrorists" WON'T, because BOTH times they raided, Woodbury was holding captive one or more of the "terrorists" people. While on the other hand, they KNOW that if the Governor gives the order to mobilize and move out, it's the GOVERNOR who's now bringing death in the form of casualties to them. People give priority in their fears to the imminent threat over the down-the-road possible threat every time. In that respect, the Governor's current attempted manipulation of them, unlike his previous manipulations (which took advantage of what they wanted to hear), are now running counter to human nature, and I believe he's burned up too much goodwill of late for that to turn the tide of emotion his way. PLUS, Andrea (who the crowd had placed their trust in since the Governor quite visibly abandoned them) is no longer around to bolster the people's confidence and allay their fears. I agree with you concerning Tyreese and Sasha. The conflict at the pit was pretty much the end of the tie between Allen, and unfortunately for him by proxy Ben, and Tyreese/Sasha. I don't even believe they'd give them a chance to come with if they decide to go or turn on the Gov's forces from the inside, for fear Allen might use the warning as an opportunity to take his revenge on Tyreese. About the Prison defense: I still think Team Prison would be better served to lure a horde to Woodbury using a heavy-duty vehicle, breach the wall in one or more places, and then drive said heavy-duty vehicle back through the horde to freedom. Even if the Woodbury residents ultimately fought off the Walkers, there'd be substantial casualties and they'd burn through a TON of ammo...particularly for that highly dangerous mounted .50 Then, if they wanted to fall back to the prison and fight a defensive conflict their position would be far stronger, because they would've significantly lessened both of the Governor's 2 key advantages. Greater supplies and greater manpower. Even better, there's always the chance that the Governor might lose say, Martinez in the Walker-invasion...which would be a MAJOR blow to his campaign. But just sitting there, even if they are doing what they can to prepare within the prison, is giving the Governor time to get all his ducks in a perfect row and cement his battle plan. Being active as opposed to reactive is the power-position 99% of the time. The Governor has dubbed them terrorists? FINE, then show the Woodbury of Sheeple some REAL terrorist tactics. You're probably right about the shape of the upcoming episodes...though vastly more hopeful in outlook concerning them.

[MinionZombie]

But how would they successfully manage to lure a herd? They'd have to find one too - and all this time could be spent securing and locking down their castle and getting ready ... plus I don't feel that's really in the Ricktatorship's modus operandi - anyone who fights them is a legitimate target, but trying to use walkers to attack Woodbury would also mean killing innocent people, and that's not Rick & Co's style. Plus it'd be too much zombie wrangling for one episode/series - there needs to be different tactics for each side. Team Prison also need to gather themselves and prepare back at their base, just like The Governor. The front gate could conceivably be breached, with a little A-Team/Gauntlett style retro-fitting of a bus or something, but then you'd have to get out of the place ... that's a tough call, Woodbury only has one gate, you'd potentially wipe out a bunch of the walkers you'd be using as weapons if you reversed out, and if you waited to let them in and start causing chaos you'd be a sitting duck in your lead vehicle. Plus such an approach would be the work of terrorists, and while I remember to mention it, Woodbury's residents don't know that Merle brought Glenn and Maggie to Woodbury, nor do they know they were tortured, and so they look at Team Prison as thugs who want their beds - they fall for The Governor's politicking hook, line, and sinker. In terms of the elder folks they'd be seeking to arm - I'd assume they'd keep those ones in back, or back at Woodbury for defense purposes - we'll have to see - but if you're fit enough to move about normally and get from your home and end up in Woodbury amidst sheer chaos, then you're fit enough to provide rear gun support in a battle. Desperate times, desperate measures. I wonder if the pregnant lady (forget her name now) will be jogging onto the battlefield, toting a machine gun? A possibility might be - at the second meeting - that Team Prison try to take out the Woodbury leadership in the same remote area, just like The Governor plans to do. There could be, at least, a significant - but not fatal (to the team) loss on each side in such a confrontation ... they might also, as I proffered earlier, clue Michonne in on the trade-off idea and instead get her to go with Team Woodbury and try and snuff them from the inside ... although she'd probably be bound and gagged straight away, so that's an idea shot down readily. We'll see, I suppose. The next episode is from Gimple, so I'm expecting good things a la "Clear".

[Morto Vivente]

6) Speaking of Prison defense - we know that walkers are getting in via the gaping hole in the rear () and through the network of corridors - in this Post Apocalyptic Home Alone, how would you defend your castle? 1. To prepare I would firstly create and maintain a clear escape route in case the prison was breached from the front. The route would lead through the corridors to the rear of the prison, maintenance would require keeping the walker population under control. Using the available floor plans everyone would memorize this route. In addition I would herd as many walkers as possible using riot gear for protection into strategically selected cells, to be released collectively or in groups at the touch of a button. I would be looking to navigate the corridors quickly and try to avoid fire fights or being pinned down. 2. With Merle‘s army experience I’d set up trip-wire booby traps along the escape route and at key locations within the maze of corridors using the stash of hand grenades. This would capitalize on the poor visibility and team Woodbury’s lack of intel on the layout. Merle plus other team members would know the b-trap locations by heart and they'd also be subtlety marked on site to prevent team prison casualties during the escape. As a back up the booby trap locations would be marked on the floor plans. Merle would take point during the corridor gauntlet. 3. Assuming that the Woodbury assault comes from the front of the prison I would try to make a stand and whittle down their numbers. Team prison would be positioned to try and minimize the likelihood of anyone being cut off in case they have to bail. I’d remove the walkers from the front of the prison in advance. They’re an extra unpredictable element that could be eliminated before the onset, especially since ammo no longer appears to be an issue. 4. If the prison front was breached then the escape plan would be put into motion. On route through the corridors at the correct time the walkers would be released from the cells to slow down any advance by the Governor. Random explosions and roaming walkers would certainly produce panic in an untrained assault team. Leading up to, and during the battle I’d have Hershel constantly guarding the prison rear to prevent the exit from being cut off by walkers/team Woodbury. Let’s face it Hersh won't be speeding through those corridors so he'd have to mind Judith too. Did I mention… walkie-talkies would be handy? Without walkies I'd have Beth as a runner between the front and rear of the prison to facilitate some level of communication. Primarily to warn Rick and co if the exit was in danger of being compromised. She'd have to be able to navigate the b-traps though. 5. Lastly, camouflaged (if possible) vehicles would be parked outside the rear perimeter as a last resort in case the booby traps and walkers fail to decimate the Woodbury forces. It may be difficult to put this plan in place within 2 days, but you did say fantasy mindset.

[Wyldwraith]

To retort, 1) Leaning on a car/truck horn for an hour would muster an impressive # of zombies. Look what TWO gunshots drew in at the farm. You can't tell me the area around the prison isn't at LEAST that infested. So there goes the waste-of-time argument against doing it. 2) Who says a human being has to be BEHIND THE WHEEL when said heavy vehicle smashes into the Woodbury gate. For 100-130 yards on straight road, it would not be terribly difficult to lock the steering wheel and put in some sort of lever to keep pressure on the accelerator. It's a classic action-sequence archetype. TWD is too good for the old "driverless decoy crash"? No, it isn't. That solves the problem of extricating the vehicle once you crash through, killing your intended weapons by needing to back out, and any danger to a member of Team Prison. Glenn/Maggie in a 2nd vehicle pick up whoever was driving the ramming vehicle once its set to go. Push the lever down to floor the gas while its in neutral, lock it in place, pop it into drive and bail immediately, rushing back to the 2nd vehicle. Roll back to the prison and call it a day. Tit for tat realism. If the Governor can manage it with only one casualty that didn't even need to happen if the idiot hadn't put himself in a location with no escape route, then by "TWD Logic" it's not that hard to use a vehicle to smash down multiple Walker-barriers. The whole point of my advocating outside-the-prison attacks is that no matter how intricately you prepare the Prison both as defensive bastion and escape-route-wise, by sitting and waiting for the Governor's forces to arrive you're making the gross strategic mistake of allowing the enemy to bring his elements of maximum strength to bear against you. Look at some major historical upsets, or even a tactical loss for the defenders that ended up being an overall strategic victory. At Marathon the Greeks attacked while the Persians were still beaching their ships. They did so because they were aware they had no answer on the field for the Persian cavalry and chariots...so they didn't allow said horses and chariots to be unloaded and thus forced the Persians to fight on their teams. Then again at Thermopylae, Leonidas/Spartans & Thesbians were outnumbered at LEAST 25x to one, so they chose a battlefield that prevented use of the cavalry/chariots once again, AND controlled the size of the front-line so their enemy's numerical advantage was meaningless. Yes, they were eventually flanked and defeated, but they'd slowed Xerxes down so much that by the time he rolled on through Thermopylae he ended up facing the whole of Greece. The rest is history. Same deal a couple generations later with Alexander Vs Darius II at Gagaumela(sp?)...Flanked and enveloped Pikemen (the traditional deadly enemy of cavalry) WITH cavalry, knowing the line was paper thin there with regards to cavalry and they would win the race to Darius before supporting infantry could intervene. Darius II ran like a bitch, leaving an army 50x the size of the Greeks to be 90+% wiped out. Thus destroying Persian rule for all time. The point makes itself. You DON'T let your enemy bring their "biggest guns" to bear, and instead force them to cobble together an alternate battle plan on the spot when they're rudely surprised the strength they were relying/had planned on is now moot. There are too few of Team Prison's A-class fighters for any kind of even half-static defense. I agree with using the Tombs to winnow down the Gov's forces...but LATE in the battle to shatter them, NOT early while they're at near-full strength. Team Prison needs tactics that kill off a significant % of these so-called "innocents" before those trucks full of armed Woodbury-ites roll up in front of the prison's broken front gate. If the majority remaining are ALREADY scared/unsure before that point, it won't take much more to rout them. Whereas leaving them untouched until they come to the Prison means you have to beat them down from as confident as they were ever going to be to completely morale-shattered. PLUS, relying almost entirely on very close-quarters room-to-room combat with combatants using automatic weapons is a GUARANTEED WAY to lose at least SOME of Team Prison. Due to events earlier in the season there's no one disposable left to kill off. - - - Updated - - - No replies? I'm heartbroken Seriously though, the "How to crush Woodbury" discussion was just getting interesting...

[sandrock74]

I think Rick should have at least one of the prison gates repaired, maybe even drag the overturned prison bus to rest along the inside of the main gate. Imagine when Woodbury's civilian army comes rolling in and finds, "Whoops, the gates are back up!" Purely from a psychological standpoint, that would make a clear statement that this won't be easy for them. Heck they can even booby trap the gates, to discourage Woodbury from tampering with them. From the looks of the prison, its is all high grass, hilly terrain, a creek, and forest around it, not ideal driving conditions to try ramming the fences from any other position (if its even possible). Something like that would force Woodbury into a snipers war, which I don't honestly think they can hope to win. The Ricktatorship just goes into the prison and don't have to worry about being shot. I don't even think a war of attrition is much of a worry for Rick and the gang (that sounds like the name of a band!), as the zombies outside would keep the Woodbury crew from cementing any positions. They would be forced to actively fight off the zombies and/or be forced to retreat. The ideal goal for Rick and his peeps (another band name!) is to make Woodbury pay dearly for any actions they take on the prison. Believe me, it wouldn't take long for most of that civilian army to beat feet! Especially is someone like Martinez could be taken out! That would lead to a route. Also, something else that I haven't seen anyone else mention: The Governor will be forced to leave some of his "army" behind to guard the walls at Woodbury, so he won't have his "full strength" at his back and call. Unless he makes the complete dumbass rookie error of leaving Woodbury completely unguarded, he's going to make the other unwise decision of splitting his forces. Basically, it looks like the Governor, in his rush to attack the prison, is going to blunder into unwise military strategies...

[MinionZombie]

@Sandrock: "Rick & The Gang" - "Rick & His Peeps" ... @Wyld - I like the idea of the '2nd vehicle jump' thingy, although I'm not convinced it would work on-screen for the show, but then as I'd said before I'm not convinced about that particular tactical approach to the situation. Perhaps being a British person, in a nation where we've got castles coming out of our arses, my gut feeling is to go for the castle siege idea and defend from a strong position ... go all Helm's Deep. Although your approach would make for an exciting bit of telly. @Morto - some really good ideas. I like the idea of booby traps - although I'm not sure where they'd get the floorplans for the prison from ... I guess they'd have to draw up ones of their own on some paper from somewhere ... dig the idea of Beth as a runner, and Hershel (perhaps with one of those baby backpacks) guarding the rear with vehicles stashed in case of an emergency. Speaking of booby traps, it's a shame they couldn't convince Morgan to join them - the dude's a master at such things!

[Morto Vivente]

- - - Updated - - - No replies? I'm heartbroken Seriously though, the "How to crush Woodbury" discussion was just getting interesting... Your point about preventing team Woodbury from bringing their superior firepower/numbers to bare makes total sense strategically. Assuming the assault will strike at the front of the prison and that there is only one access road. What if select members of team prison ambush the Woodbury convoy on route to the prison perimeter. They could possibly destroy some vehicles with hand grenades and Merle could snipe a driver or two. The goal being to force some vehicles of the road allowing other ambush squad members to drill them with assault rifles. The element of surprise and subsequent confusion may even enable the team prison squad to return to the prison. Such an attack if successful would certainly demoralize the Woodbury force before it even reaches the prison perimeter, as you pointed out; psychological advantage is a necessity when out numbered. However I would have doubts about splitting the team. Your thoughts ? @ MZ: My recollection may be wrong, but I think they found floor plans before Rick decided to clear out the other cell block, in a very early episode. Morgan would be an excellent recruit for team prison. If he had the time he'd probably have tree logs crushing team Woodbury vehicles à la Return of the Jedi. Hershel would need one of those Baby on Board stickers though.

[Wyldwraith]

@Morto: I don't think force-splitting would be a problem for Team Prison, SO LONG AS THEY DONT GO TOO FAR from the Prison. Rick & Co. are already extremely used to dividing up into multiple smaller units to accomplish several goals at once. I think Rick, Daryl and Merle could handle the raid on the trucks you're speaking of. Leaving Herschel in strategic overwatch at the Prison, with Glenn/Maggie as his lieutenants and Beth/Carl as scouts/runners, with Michonne in the role of floating back-up. However, a key part of the plan would need to be a pre-planned route that gets Rick/Daryl/Merle back under cover and reunited with the others very quickly after the raid. Given those open-air trucks, can you imagine the damage you could do if you dropped a tree across the road leading to the prison, bringing the convoy to a stop for even a few minutes while Martinez organizes a detachment to deal with either lifting out of the way, or chopping up then lifting the deadfall...then, while the trucks were stopped lob a grenade into the back of a couple of the trucks. In that environment, you're talking about an IDEAL use of a grenade, Ie: Dense concentration of enemies in a very small area that isn't easy to extricate themselves from en masse within seconds. Even people who frantically dove over the side of one of those open-air military trucks are likely to sustain injuries...ESPECIALLY among the old and/or already somewhat frail individuals. Done right, you could get 10-15 severely wounded or killed...plus further distract the survivors who would need to turn their attention fairly quickly to determining who's dead, who's unconscious or might be dying and who's simply wounded or unharmed, because shrapnel injuries almost certainly won't cause lethal brain trauma, so the grenade-casualties would be on-the-clock to reanimation time. Add to that a quick surprise burst of Rick & Merle with assault weapons (which Merle seems quite "handy" (a groaner I know) with) and Daryl popping off a couple Xbow bolts, and 12-15 dead/seriously wounded could be accomplished without them even leaving the cover of the treeline. As a bonus, given how woods-wise Daryl and Merle are, I bet they could get the drop on a couple of the Governor's spies currently deployed in the woods opposite the prison. That would be 14-17 wounded/killed before the Woodbury-ites even SAW a target to fight back against. Add in the emotional trauma of needing to headshot 20-25% of their forces to prevent reanimation, and that could be the battle then and there. Look how much the Woodbury-ites freaked unanimously when just TWO of their people died in front of them due to the brief Walker incursion of Woodbury. They were ready to abandon Woodbury en masse before Andrea stepped in....and now they'd be staring at 7x more casualties. I'm more than willing to entertain numerous possible tactics they could employ...I just think hunkering down in the Prison with no outside attacks, as their primary strategy, JUST ISN'T a path to victory. Look at the current roster. With Axel gone, the closest we've got to disposable potential casualties amongst Team Prison are Carol and Beth. Carol I'd hate to see go, but could accept it fairly easily. Beth has no purpose other than to be Carl's first-sexual-experience-in-the-offing and as Judith's babysitter. With the group that lean on disposables, as I said before, heated ongoing hall-to-hall, room-to-room close quarters combat with assault weapons is bound to be an attrition-rich environment...because if they go the route of letting 35+ Woodbury-ites (including the likes of Martinez, the handles-an-assault-rifle very confidently young brunette we began seeing on the wall after the raids had significantly depleted the Gov's goons by 90%) come into the Prison to fight it out...even with all the aforementioned benefits of Team Prison fighting in their home turf, with automatic weapons, confined spaces and short distances, all it takes is ONE wounded and panicky Woodburyite to round the wrong corner at the wrong moment, see movement and begin hosing the area down on full-auto until the clip runs dry. It would leave them an easy kill for the nearest surviving member of Team Prison, but that wouldn't bring back whoever just caught 3-4 5.56m rounds in the abdomen, chest and an extremity. One should remember the Woodbury folks dont necessarily need to be accurate. Dump a lot of lead downrange in a very confined area, and a hail of ricocheting flattened/fragmenting slugs could be just as deadly to a defender even behind direct-line-of-sight cover whose trying to hold a preprepared chokepoint. This is one of the reasons I think facing 30+ assault-rifle-wielding invaders inside the prison, with no prior steps taken to thin the invaders ranks is a BAD idea of Alamo/Masada magnitude.

[Morto Vivente]

Given those open-air trucks, can you imagine the damage you could do if you dropped a tree across the road leading to the prison, bringing the convoy to a stop for even a few minutes while Martinez organizes a detachment to deal with either lifting out of the way, or chopping up then lifting the deadfall...then, while the trucks were stopped lob a grenade into the back of a couple of the trucks. In that environment, you're talking about an IDEAL use of a grenade, Ie: Dense concentration of enemies in a very small area that isn't easy to extricate themselves from en masse within seconds. Even people who frantically dove over the side of one of those open-air military trucks are likely to sustain injuries...ESPECIALLY among the old and/or already somewhat frail individuals. Done right, you could get 10-15 severely wounded or killed...plus further distract the survivors who would need to turn their attention fairly quickly to determining who's dead, who's unconscious or might be dying and who's simply wounded or unharmed, because shrapnel injuries almost certainly won't cause lethal brain trauma, so the grenade-casualties would be on-the-clock to reanimation time. BRUTAL Sounds like a solid strategy. I particularly like the idea of felling a tree to bring the convoy to a halt. The location would be important though in order to limit visibility on approach, and minimize any suspicion in the Governor’s camp (he’s a sneaky bastard). The exit from a bend in the access road could work (assuming there is one), it might even precipitate a small pile up or worse… Then let rip as you described. I seem to remember Michonne inspecting a 50mm machine gun. How about having it deployed under camouflage, then hosing the Woodbury convoy combined with a few grenades lobbed into the trucks. I’m guessing it’s a cumbersome piece of weaponry though, thereby reducing their chance of escape? You mentioned Masada and it got me thinking, however unlikely (due to walker threat outside the prison),if a siege did develop, I’d definitely have Michonne and Daryl infiltrate the Woodbury camp at night to perform a sabotage mission. Say, igniting their ammo dump in conjunction with picking off a few Woodbury-ites. It would be TWD medieval style, with sword and crossbow. The idea of a siege raised a question for me. How is the Woodbury assault force going to deal with the walker threat if they’re positioned around the prison perimeter ? Sustained gun fire is surely going to attract the surrounding undead population, which up until now has been quite significant. I believe Merle called it the Red Zone. Can you imagine; plugging away with your M4 and a walker shambles up behind you and bites you on the arse! They'd have to push for the interior of the prison quite quickly I'd imagine. Any thoughts on this ?