TWD 3x15 "This Sorrowful Life" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[facestabber]

IMO, if the demise of every single major character is preceded by an overly dramatic arc, then the result would be extremely ponderous. But on the other hand, if every death was sudden and relied on the element of surprise to create the drama e.g. the death of T-Dog, then the effect would soon ware off and become pedestrian. Excessive use of shock tactics doesn't have any longevity. IMO, an engaging balance between both approaches would be the right way to go. But it's obviously impossible to meet everybody's expectations. The epic-arc approach is a lot older than Hollywood Cinema by several thousand years. I'm sure you'll agree that it's their misuse of it, and superficial treatment which cheapen's it. When it's done right the result is The Empire Strikes Back,, as opposed to Star Trek V, , or.... I can hardly bring myself to type it; Titanic. Well said. While I dont think there is time to have entire episodes dedicated to non stop drama for each major characters death, would people on here be happy if Glen slipped and fell off the guard tower to his death. What if he was goofing around on the railing and bam, fell and died? Because that is real. Heck a co-worker of mine was recently run over and killed by a semi on the interstate. Not a fierce gun battle or in the middle of an act of heroism. Just real death. Main characters are going to die but people become attached to them. Many of us are invested in the people and this epic story. Heck I even miss Shane and I was never a huge supporter. This is TV, not real life. I understand peoples fear of a soap opera feel if they go over the top but in the mean time we like to see our characters go out with some story. Axel's death was fine by me because the abruptness and violence of it fit the scene. And fit his character at this point in the story. But if that was Rick's melon getting drilled like that the viewers would take up arms. As many nitpicks as I may air, I realize the absolute epic nature of what this show is. The seasons in their entirety tell really damn good stories. I may be off with this analogy but take the WWE(or WWF as I knew it as a kid). I personally cant stand it but the following it has is tremendous. Why? The results can be manufactured. Hero's can reign and fall when and where they decide. Compare it to MMA or UFC as the generic term. It has grown tremendously. But the results cant be manufactured. The peoples favorite champ can't stay on top unless he wins. So the UFC will never grow ,and in my opinion has started to level off, to the empire that the WWE is. What I am saying is if you take TWD, which people are emotionally attached to, and just start dropping the main characters quickly and without story because thats 'real'....well TWD will fade fast and thats a wrap folks. TWD is tv and entertainment like the WWE so things can be tweaked and will be tweaked based on ratings and fanbase. Now if Daryl grows wings and starts flying because his fanbase demands I too will vomit

[MinionZombie]

Well said Morto and Facestabber - I was starting to think my pretty simple and justified observation/comment was falling on deaf ears.

[Harleydude666]

ok, look at it this way. Ever see "To Live and Die in La"? when William Peterson's character suddenly gets snuffed out? It was BRILLIANT! and it was shocking all the same. Kept you thinking well after the movie was over. Or the "Departed" when Leo all of a sudden gets it. (I felt the Leo death ripped off Peterson's IMHO) but anyway TWD can afford to pull a few deaths off in that vein and style and still work. Maybe not deal with the aftermath at that moment but have the characters in another scene reflect and mourn that character. Otherwise yes, these over dramatic deaths for every character just gets too routine and too predictable all the time.

[MinionZombie]

Harley - Leo's death in The Departed comes in the closing minutes of a pretty long movie, and at the natural conclusion to his story as part of the remainder of the story involving Matt Damon's character - there is meaning there, and a build up to that for the entire film. The moment is shocking, but the moment is entirely earned and justified, not-to-mention an important event in the grand scheme of things. What Andy and Aces seem to be proposing would be the equivalent of capping Leo's character five minutes in - from a writer's perspective (and story/plot perspective) that's cutting yourself off at the knees. The death doesn't have to be a drawn out moment full of weeping choristers and swelling strings, but just chucking one in at random is piss-weak. Whatever death for whoever it is, it has to make some semblance of sense - either in the grand scheme of things, or for the character, or for that very moment they're existing in. ... ... ... Goddamn it, you motherfuckers dragged me back into this topic of discussion again ... right ... I'm leaving this line of enquiry for a second time.

[AcesandEights]

What Andy and Aces seem to be proposing would be the equivalent of capping Leo's character five minutes in - from a writer's perspective (and story/plot perspective) that's cutting yourself off at the knees. Now who is taking things out of context Goddamn it, you motherfuckers dragged me back into this topic of discussion again ... right ... I'm leaving this line of enquiry for a second time. So you're conceding defeat twice...in one thread? ........... ....... ..... .... .. . Just kidding, MZ. Honestly, though, you can criticize something you like...the TWD gestapo will not come and get you if you find fault when it wanders too heavily into the predictably formulaic or when they slip up with their presentation. I know you like the show, but TWD will still let you watch it if you're honest about its faults.

[MinionZombie]

"Defeat"? No - boredom with the topic, in actuality. Unfortunately my desire to be understood outweighs my hatred of going round in bloody circles. The essence is, Axel's death worked well, and Merle's death worked well ... the main point is, I firmly believe (for exhaustively written reasons), that Daryl's eventual demise would be best-suited to the latter pacing than the former. When you've watched a character for a long time and seen their lives play out on-screen, their personalities changing, the viewer deserves something more than clumsily getting bitten because they dim-witted their way into awaiting chompers, or got a pot-luck shot to the brain from a bad guy. MAJOR COMIC SPOILER - REGARDING ISSUE 100 OF THE COMIC:   Issue 100 required a major original character to die. Glenn's pick by 'eeny meeny miny moe' was to illustrate the arbitrary viciousness of the new big bad guy. Glenn's death also came at the dramatic end point of his story - he's been through a huge arc and a huge variety of changes - he was going to leave the group and set up house with Maggie and that was going to be that, which doesn't provide much storytelling opportunities, therefore the time was right for him to be written out. His death is also loaded with meaning and has a huge impact on all the characters. Axel took a random bullet to the brain in the comic, and a sudden bullet in the show, but he was never a huge character in either - ergo an audience will accept a more click-of-the-fingers death. It seems to me that Aces and Andy are saying that Axel's style of death would fit Daryl's eventual demise. That's what you're saying, correct? I don't agree (and I've extensively explained my position - hence why I'm bored of going over it again and again). If that's not what you're saying, then what the fuck are we talking about? ... If you read my posts a tad closer, you'd see I actually do level criticisms at TWD, I just don't make mountains out of what I firmly believe to be molehills (again, extensively reasoned). For example, just quickly off the top of my head: 1) 3x05's script was too lengthy, therefore numerous scenes had to be cut, which meant the emotional shovel-work required to rebalance the viewer after the shocking events of 3x04 was not as full as it should have been. 2) 3x14 is the weakest episode of season 3. While I enjoy all TWD episodes - it is true that I'm a huge fan of the show, indeed it's my favourite show - and there were numerous things in 3x14 that I enjoyed, the overall structure of the back-half needed work at the writer's room stage to make for better pacing for all of the episodes in the back half, not just some of them. 3) The timeframe of the episodes needs extending - the front-half of season 2 is one week, and likewise season 3 is over a rather brief timeframe (decidedly briefer than the week-to-week viewing schedule we folks get when watching it). I'm not saying each episode needs to have a week's space in the timeframe, but seven days worth of story spread out over seven weeks (front half of season 2) meant that it doesn't play as well week-to-week as it does in marathon sessions. In short - a balance between the two would be ideal. 4) I am a supporter of Andrea, vociferously so, but even for me her story arc has tested my patience. I like the overall thrust of her season arc, but a few relatively minor shifts, movements, tweaks, and polishes could have better set the agenda. 5) The front-half of season 3 was really good - packed with lots of nutritious goodness - but the pace was so full-on out-of-the-gate it did mean it's hard to build up the momentum. Where do you go from there? Inevitably the much-needed slower episodes can be a slightly awkward downward gear-shift at times (e.g. 3x05), but can equally work very well (e.g. 3x12). In short, a balance between the mean-pace of season 2, and the mean-pace of season 3, with more of a sense of steady escalation over time. Season 2 did feel a bit-too slow in the front half (on a week-to-week basis particularly), but at times I have said "woah, slow down just a touch" during season 3's front-half. Ironically (as I was quietly predicting) they were a smidge too far with the cranked-up pace. It's been good and enjoyable, but when you kick off so breathlessly, it does generate challenges in balancing the pace and crescendos of an entire season - for the most part they've done very well, but there have been wobbles and some crunchy gear changes here-and-there. I could list more, but just because I'd rather focus on the positive, rather than the (relatively) negative, doesn't mean I'm some blind and deluded fanatic. You people ... geez. *awaits the inevitable "What do you mean "you people"?" meme*

[Wyldwraith]

I actually agree with MZ about something. God, I think I hear the 1st Seal of the Apocalypse breaking. However "real" it might be for main characters to die hapless deaths, that isn't FUN for the MAJORITY of viewers. End of the day, TV shows are basically democracy-by-prediction. If the show developers correctly anticipate and deliver what the majority of the audience wants, the show succeeds. If they try and take some sort of artistic integrity-based position and do it their way with no thought to how the viewers will react to it, the show fails, no matter how much a small minority of viewers might respect the hell outta it. 2% of Viewers absolutely adoring incorruptible artistic integrity has never, and WILL NEVER trump 98% of viewers looking for a fun 60 mins of TV per week. I mean, you even say "formulaic TV style" like that's a profane phrase. Guess what? It IS TV! Kept on the air not by we 20% of the viewer-share zombie fanatic fans, but by the 80% of people who could take or leave Romero's work who for whatever reason have decided they like watching TWD every Sunday there's a new episode. Which makes more sense, write to please the 20% die-hards, or write to please the 80% expecting simple "good formulaic TV"? Remembering that at the end of the day, for every last person with TRUE control over this show's existence, TWD exists for no other reason than to provide a desirable 48 minute window that will make the commercial spots worth a lot to sell.

[paranoid101]

Great fecking episode, goodbye merle you will be missed. I swear us zombie fans will nitpick this show to death lol

[Buzzbomb]

Again - Did no one else think zombie Merle looked very much like Bub? Looked more like Paul Newman to me.... great episode though!

[Morto Vivente]

Looked more like Paul Newman to me.... great episode though! Yeah, Newman after he's been hogging the bong all night!

[facestabber]

Very well said Minion and I simply have nothing to add. Wylde, do you have a fever? haha

[AcesandEights]

Jeebus, Wyld! The one time you recant on your trademark TWD picayunery, is when I need you the most. It's a classic stab in the back!

[Moon Knight]

Haha, you guys are awesome. I agree with MZ but I totally understand where the others are coming from considering the source material. My biggest gripe with how characters are killed off in the show is you can tell off the bat they are gonna die by how much attention they suddenly get in the episode.

[AcesandEights]

My biggest gripe with how characters are killed off in the show is you can tell off the bat they are gonna die by how much attention they suddenly get in the episode. That is exactly what I'm saying. Combine that with a dash of plot armor and it becomes a bit too safe and predictable.

[Harleydude666]

[QUOTE=MinionZombie;296082]Harley - Leo's death in The Departed comes in the closing minutes of a pretty long movie, and at the natural conclusion to his story as part of the remainder of the story involving Matt Damon's character - there is meaning there, and a build up to that for the entire film. The moment is shocking, but the moment is entirely earned and justified, not-to-mention an important event in the grand scheme of things. What Andy and Aces seem to be proposing would be the equivalent of capping Leo's character five minutes in - from a writer's perspective (and story/plot perspective) that's cutting yourself off at the knees. The death doesn't have to be a drawn out moment full of weeping choristers and swelling strings, but just chucking one in at random is piss-weak. Whatever death for whoever it is, it has to make some semblance of sense - either in the grand scheme of things, or for the character, or for that very moment they're existing in. I get that but he was killed with no warning, it blew you away. No one could say they saw it coming. I wouldn't mind seeing Daryl go out this way and maybe in the first five minutes, it would be mind blowing. It would totally fuck with the security fans have with the characters of the show. Show the audience no one is sacred