TWD 6x16 "Last Day on Earth" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

I've just read that the home video release of Season 6 will feature an alternative version of Episode 6x16 ... nope, we don't find out who dies, rather it's down to swearing. Much like with the alternative closing line for season four ("They're f*cking with the wrong people"), the season six finale is going to have Negan's original effin' and jeffin' dialogue in it. Seems that both versions will be on the release, so you can choose whichever you like. I do wish America would grow up when it comes to swearing (and sexy stuff) on network and cable TV, so we wouldn't have to fart around like this - but nevertheless, I'm looking forward to that. I wonder if they'll do alternative dialogue stuff for Negan from this point forward, so the TV version will have no effin' going on, but the home video version will...

[shootemindehead]

Who sanctions this nonsense? America can produce TV shows where men shag each other up the arse, guts get ripped from stomachs, heads get blown apart, arms and other appendages get lopped off, ad nauseum... But say "fuck" and the shop shuts. I mean, I DO think that some stations are gratuitous sometimes in their approach to titillation (HBO, I'm looking at you), but at he same time dumbfounded that the odd expletive can be such a touchstone in what are post "watershed" adult TV shows? Ridiculous and mind boggling.

[MinionZombie]

Likely down to protest groups, the PTA, etc etc - they get all tied up in knicker knots if someone swears or flashes a nipple, but tearing out someone's intestines is a-ok! AMC relies on its advertising, and even though it has more freedom than network telly, it still can't having swearing and any worthwhile sex scenes because of whiny groups. I think that, legally speaking, cable channels can show that stuff, but because of fears over protest groups boycotting the products of their advertisers (which would mean advertisers running away and pulling their money with them), they're essentially held to ransom. It's madness. Whereas the likes of HBO, Starz, Showtime, etc are subscription channels and can do whatever the hell they like - hence The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, Dexter, Ash vs Evil Dead, et al.

[Wyldwraith]

Sorry for the late reply Facestabber: Been thinking of something else in the last few months TWD-wise. Why does it seem like TWD Earth is getting *more* populated by humans, not less, as time goes by? Yeah yeah, I get it that despotic warlords are a tried and true trope in anything using the hyphenate "post-apocalyptic"...but seriously. Forget the zombies. You'd be losing people to shit like Cholera, Dysentary (and in the South, probably Yellow Fever as well)...plus a host of other nasty little microbes I haven't bothered to list. I mean seriously, when was the last time you saw a stream of running water in TWD that did NOT have a) an incapacitated but still active Walker, or b) a rotting corpse lying in/across the stream/brook/creek? All those little riverlets lead to still other bodies of water. And that's ONE health issue. Just one. Gun accidents caused by psychopaths+alcohol, suicides, cancer/heart disease....hell, ASTHMA would be killing people by now with all the inhalers in the pharmacies no longer any good. So why is it that the violent, follower-type misanthropes seem more numerous than people actually trying to live as close to the modern human standard as possible? I mean Hell, people have been known to get serious infections and die just from being filthy body-wise and then getting a minor laceration that pushes said filth on their skin into the wound. Not as epidemiologist, but if there is more than one group like the Saviors within 1500 miles of the geography the show is currently focused on, I'd cry BULLSHIT from the tallest building I can find. TWD is getting too cozy with this concept of "dozens of people making it indefinitely despite an environment deadlier than the one faces by our ancient ancestors." Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[MinionZombie]

As for 'more populated' - over time small bands of survivors clump together, then they start finding places to defend and call home. Some had that from the beginning (e.g. Alexandria), and they expand (and contract) as survivors find them. The people have been scattered to the wind, but now that the weakest have been weeded out, the strongest are finding each other - for good or bad - and that means communities grow. It's like how in Land of the Dead with mankind getting back on its feet somewhat with a few pockets of humanity scattered about the place in organised cities. As for viruses etc - well, we have seen plenty of streams etc without walkers in them over the course of the show, but then such a plotline might not fit in with the overall story being told. But we did have the season four story where people got sick as a direct result of whatever that infection was, some kind of 'ultra swine flu' ... not sure whether it was caused by the walkers themselves, or whether the walkers happened to catch it as easily as humans being that they're essentially the same. There's too many 'real world' issues that get in the way though, if you tried to include everything. Petrol going bad doesn't seem to be an issue here, but by this point in the story you'd be having trouble with that - but no fuel means no vehicles means no car chases or mass transportation, which can seriously hamper your storytelling. So it's fine to suspend disbelief from time to time. So many apocalyptic shows/movies ignore the petrol situation ... although the comic now mostly has everyone on horse back, but much more time has passed in the comic than the show.

[JDP]

Petrol going bad doesn't seem to be an issue here, but by this point in the story you'd be having trouble with that - but no fuel means no vehicles means no car chases or mass transportation, which can seriously hamper your storytelling. So it's fine to suspend disbelief from time to time. So many apocalyptic shows/movies ignore the petrol situation ... although the comic now mostly has everyone on horse back, but much more time has passed in the comic than the show. It depends on the storage conditions. A well contained gasoline can last for years. The trick is to avoid: 1- the more volatile components in the gasoline eventually evaporating 2- the oxygen and humidity in the air being gradually absorbed by the gasoline and altering its composition Tightly closed plastic, metal or glass containers will preserve it for a long time.

[facestabber]

Sorry for the late reply Facestabber: Been thinking of something else in the last few months TWD-wise. Why does it seem like TWD Earth is getting *more* populated by humans, not less, as time goes by? Yeah yeah, I get it that despotic warlords are a tried and true trope in anything using the hyphenate "post-apocalyptic"...but seriously. Forget the zombies. You'd be losing people to shit like Cholera, Dysentary (and in the South, probably Yellow Fever as well)...plus a host of other nasty little microbes I haven't bothered to list. I mean seriously, when was the last time you saw a stream of running water in TWD that did NOT have a) an incapacitated but still active Walker, or b) a rotting corpse lying in/across the stream/brook/creek? All those little riverlets lead to still other bodies of water. And that's ONE health issue. Just one. Gun accidents caused by psychopaths+alcohol, suicides, cancer/heart disease....hell, ASTHMA would be killing people by now with all the inhalers in the pharmacies no longer any good. So why is it that the violent, follower-type misanthropes seem more numerous than people actually trying to live as close to the modern human standard as possible? I mean Hell, people have been known to get serious infections and die just from being filthy body-wise and then getting a minor laceration that pushes said filth on their skin into the wound. Not as epidemiologist, but if there is more than one group like the Saviors within 1500 miles of the geography the show is currently focused on, I'd cry BULLSHIT from the tallest building I can find. TWD is getting too cozy with this concept of "dozens of people making it indefinitely despite an environment deadlier than the one faces by our ancient ancestors." Just my .02, your mileage may vary. He lives. Well I for one would be up shit creek with the Asthma issue. It sucks to rely on a damn maintenance inhaler to live normal. But I know one of my first raids in a ZA is a pharmacy for advair. To your points. I agree, that TWD universe seems more populated than ever. As Minion alluded to this has to be chalked up to suspending disbelief. I think we all have to come up with our own beliefs/scenarios to let us continue to enjoy the show. Enjoy I do but I still do NOT like the cliff hanger(assholes). In my mind, this current locale is the exception for populace. The road from Terminus to current was rather desolate. I do follow spoiler sights, as I am self admitting a weakness. I have an understanding of whats coming and I am intrigued with how they will pull it off. I have found that when I start losing faith, the powers that be come up with an episode that knocks it out of the park. Without a rewatch to date, season 6 has probably been my least favorite. Even with S5 struggling quite often it had some killer episodes, especially 05-01 which was fantastic. I got sidetracked. Whiskey is getting to my brain. I cant wait for S7. I hope that this season is the best. But I am nervous. The cast is huge. Abundant with talent already, the cast will be expanding. The writers have a balancing act that they need to solve. With an ever growing populace, they better bring their A game.

[Wyldwraith]

One thing I just can't suspend my disbelief on, In the absence of a working society/ever-present law enforcement, psychopaths being psychopaths would be killing far more readily than they do in our world. Now yes, a frightening warlord with a tight grip on his men could keep a lid on some of that with horrific punishments...but there are times such violent individuals (Who often have drug/alcohol dependencies. Look at Daryl's brother having all that meth at the beginning of the show, for example.) simply aren't thinking straight. Two violent psychos get to drinking, smoking meth etc etc...a fight breaks out over one of the captured women turned into a rapetoy, one of the men ends up with a knife in his kidney. Multiply be weeks and months, and that's a SERIOUS depopulating effect on the hyper-violent murderous-types that NEEDS to be explained. I need a detailed explanation for how a murderous group too large for the Warlord (In this case this Neegan character) to keep an eye on all of them simultaneously is keeping his men from turning on each other. Someone like the Governor has it easier, where all his folks are contained in one small locale...But once you start sending large units in various directions. Have people running around doing crazy and violent shit...Crazy and violent shit that isn't part of said Warlord's plan is GOING to happen. Simple. Inarguable. Psychopaths just aren't psychopaths when the guy controlling them wants them to be. They're psychos 24/7.

[MinionZombie]

We've only just been introduced to Negan, and we've seen Dwight's punishment for running off (his face is now scarred from being horribly burned - it was even worse in the comics). As such, we've not had enough time to see more of the day-to-day workings of The Saviours, nor hear of little stories like that. As for Negan's men turning on each other? I'm not that convinced. Sure, maybe the odd drunken scuffle, but I'd imagine word would get back somehow to Negan - or he'd make his own assumptions - and dish out punishment. As for drugs ... in the earlier days, yeah, but there's no dealers or producers of product any more. So, like we've seen with Nick in FTWD, they'll have to clean up. For a time there'd be some drugs to have, and you could raid evidence lock ups in police stations (while raiding for weapons and ammo etc), but sooner or later you're going to run out. It's been close to two years now in TWD's world, so drugs are going to be an unlikely past time. Booze, on the other hand, would be in far more plentiful supply. I think Negan has his men on a fairly tight leash and they respect/fear him. So they'll be keeping their noses clean for the most part. They'd also likely be severely punished if they killed other people from the communities because Negan wants them alive to scavenge/make things that he'll then take. It's no use to him if they're dead because of some psychopath getting their jollies. Rather, I think we'd see psychopaths being able to 'employ' their particular brand of actions to be somehow 'useful' in this world for their own survival. Just look at The Claimers - a rogue band of scumbags roaming around - there's no doubt that they'd be out there doing anything they wanted to poor, defenceless survivors with no luck. Hell, in the Season 4 finale they were about to rape both Michonne and Carl and then murder them all along with Rick and Daryl. However - as we then saw - they didn't last much longer. Groups like that would inevitably eat themselves alive and come to blows somehow sooner or later. In much larger groups, with a leader who has established a punishment system, that sort of thing would be (and seems to be) far more suppressed.

[Wyldwraith]

Actually (and I'm a former drug dealer who was smart enough not to get caught, with the statute of limitations long since having run out on my crimes (I cleaned my shit up after I got hurt defending an ex-girlfriend from a rapey/abusive ex-husband, and kept my nose clean because I got married a bit after that relationship ended) so you can trust me on this...the chemicals to make meth won't run out until WELL after all the store-made booze is gone. The only thing that keeps meth production down to sane levels in America is constant monitoring of a few of the key chemicals by the DEA and store policy not to sell hundreds of packs of certain OTC medications to people at one time. Without those governors, the anhydrous ammonia supply is HUGE and more importantly, readily accessible. There are, at this present moment, enough of these chemicals in retail stores and district warehouses to keep meth production going at 500x the current level of meth-cook production for something like the next 25-85yrs. There's THAT much of those chemicals freely available, and NONE of them go bad over time, with the POSSIBLE exception of the easily accessible Ephedrine tablets going bad if the storage areas they're in have been exposed to significant amounts of nearby standing water. Look at Z-Nation. Methamphetamines have become a trade staple for even important things like bullets and antibiotics. (If you don't have 10 friends to warn you if zombies are sneaking up on you, it pays to have a substance in your pocket you can take a few puffs of and avoid sleep for the next 48-72hrs until safer sleep conditions prevail.) Imported drugs, like cocaine and heroin will be gone in days, not weeks. Prescription opiates are trickier. The pharmacy supplies will be gone BEFORE the pharmacy closes down for the last time. (My Uncle is a Master Pharmacist, he's often told me during zombie apocalypse discussions that one of the perks of being a pharmacist is you start out the apocalypse with two large gym bags full of highly desirable addictive substances for barter. In other words, he (and likely every single pharmacist in the world with the brains) will clean out the opiates for their own uses before shuttering the place.)...But the warehouses that supply the pharmacies on a 5-day cycle (this I know because I'm going to be sucking down Oxycodone for the rest of my life) don't really give the pharmacies a ton of the shit at one time anymore, but they have enough in stock to supply every pharmacy in their supply area for a statutory 60 days if the manufacturers suddenly go offline. (It's a safety feature our government insists on. If you think people overdosing on PCP are violent, you've never seen someone with a 20yr opiate habit whose suddenly been deprived of their meds on a mission to reacquire them. Small child torture and dismemberment cannot be ruled out for even the most moral of such addicts...I mean, *I* know I'd commit mass murder to keep my pills flowing in event of Apocalypse, so I'd assume everyone else would to, right? I mean, that's why addiction is BAD...it makes Animals of human beings. Sure, we're more civilized than meth-heads and needle jockeys...but that's only because the pharmacy is our supplier and insurance coverage pays for the shit.) Anyways, beyond the local warehouses you have the (also statutory) regional warehouses...now, these have as much security as fucking Fort Knox under normal conditions..and are hard to get into to boot...But, once abandoned...all its going to take is someone ramming an eighteen wheeler into the vault wall. Trust me, I've checked. It's just reinforced concrete. (Yes, I know where the nearest one is...and that's where I'm going to be shortly after the dead start rising while other idiots are holding up pharmacists/breaking into empty/looted pharmacies.)...The supply in THESE buildings could keep a middling-sized city wasted for 5-7 days...so I think that supply will last the few thousand survivors with an inclination/need to pop pills well into the 22nd century. None of this even touches on the easily cultivated/naturally occurring drugs. Magic mushrooms, Peyote buttons, the ubiquitous marijuana...or the easily manufactured LSD. So no, the drugs will likely last until people are down to drinking moonshine after the retail booze runs out.

[MinionZombie]

Interesting post, Wyld. Fascinating stuff about the storage and supply cycle. There's a plot for an episode of FTWD right there - although probably better suited to a first season that didn't skip most of the good stuff. Sure, you could produce meth - but would you necessarily have the market for it? A lot of users will be dying as rapidly as non-users. This is also assuming you've got someone who knows how to cook it in the first place. It could be an interesting aside in a later part of the apocalypse where you've got connected civilisations looking to trade and barter, although it'd still be a relatively small scale operation. And that's assuming those running the communities were okay with drug use inside their walls. I don't think, for example, Rick would tolerate drug use of any kind in Alexandria. I think there's certainly some room for a subplot related around these issues in FTWD ... whether they'll do it or not is another thing. It could provide an intriguing 'gang/territory war' as a backdrop for Nick's story, for example.

[Wyldwraith]

Well, My point was more that scavengers could easily keep opiates as strong as heroin flowing almost as easily as they can raid a liquor store (and with less zombie trouble, because the buildings with the drugs use segmented construction for security reason, with a lot of bullet-resistant glass for visibility...so it'd be quite difficult to get ambushed in such a building by the walking dead. Other humans, sure.) Now, your point about all the meth cooks being dead is a good one, I'll grant you. Meth CREATORS are about as sloppy and unlikely to survive as habitual meth-users. So unless one of the few surviving cooks goes on a Johnny Meth-seed type mission to educate the masses on his craft, it'll prolly be gone (at least until civilization rebounds, then it'll be back quick enough if people have to reinvent it. That's one of the things I find hysterical about the War on Drugs. You could multiply the number of DEA officers by 10 million and make it an automatic death sentence to so much as smoke a joint and you wouldn't significantly diminish drug use. Civilized people like getting wasted because..well, civilization makes people miserable. People don't like being miserable, and try to escape being miserable with all the intelligence of a wolf with its leg in a trap. I feel so intensely sorry for law enforcement officials involved in anti-drug crime. If they're not being paid a very good wage for it (and they aren't)...they're literally wasting every hour of their lives they spend on the job, because they're trying to drain oceans with teaspoons...and risking getting their ass shot off while doing it. Anyways...I was rather thinking that the sort of people the Saviors are likely to attract are really the sort of people most likely to destructively indulge in any feel-good chemical they can...and like I said...the only advantage Neegan has over the DEA is he could actually mete out automatic death-by-torture punishment to the junkies in his ranks. It might scare a few off the drugs, possibly...but believe me, I've seen every facet of addiction. If you could make a junkie believe that there is a 1,000% chance they will be painfully murdered 30 seconds after their next fix wears off, you wouldn't stop 99.999% of them from pursuing it. Now, such punishments could help Neegan KEEP men clean...because non-junkies are much more sensitive to threats (especially imminent ones) to their lives...but stopping ongoing abuse in the ranks...a pipe dream even for an omnipotent all-knowing God who can instantly smite every drug abuser an instant after abuse. Refer to my aforementioned comment on people being miserable etc. Think they're miserable now? Let the dead rise and start eating them...Rick might not tolerate drug use ...but he doesn't have the stomach to exile or execute the users either...at least until as an indirect result of their drug abuse they do something like get people killed. I agree that it would make an interesting scavenging story, perhaps an interesting power struggle in a semi-recovered post-apocalyptic human holding...but you'll never see it anywhere but on HBO or a similar channel for the same reasons you don't see swearing and Game of Thrones-level nudity on AMC. A lot of powerful organizations in our society only exist because they've sold the majority of citizens the lie they can do something meaningful about drugs. Stop their kids from ODing etc. They can't...but check out the fact the DEA's budget appropriations increase by 20-32% every year like clockwork. They're as much in business as the dealers, and pushing the same product, just the other side of the coin. They're filling jail cells for private corporations in the prison business. Just thought I'd offer some detailed background on a normally sanitized topic.

[MinionZombie]

It's a bit of a mess, I'll say that for sure! I agree that Negan's men are much more likely to be scumbags ... but then again, that's going from what we've seen of them thus far. They might not be quite as 'bad' (although still pretty bad) - the whole Rick's team attacked first, kinda thing. Or maybe it's more Rick's team aren't as good as they think they are, hehe. I'd think there'd be plenty of drinking going on in Negan's crew, but yes, it would be a nice touch to have at least one or two of them be into harder narcotics and develop a little subplot around that somehow. They could even have their own little operation going on, mostly for personal use, but perhaps for a few folks on the road and in other communities to get bombed. In the apocalypse you'd definitely want to check out from time to time, so given the chance (i.e. not having to survive on the road in the most basic of fashions) you'd indulge in whatever vice you could (sex, booze, drugs, gambling etc - they had that pictured quite well in Land of the Dead with their re-established community, and it was used to control as much as entertain the masses).

[JDP]

From what was shown in the "sneak preview" of the first episode of season 7, it might be possible to narrow down who got killed by Negan. ***POSSIBLE SPOILER AHEAD***:   We are shown a scene where Negan has just killed someone in the group and is teasing Rick and flaunting the bloody baseball bat in front of Rick's face. Rick has a splatter of blood on the RIGHT SIDE of his face, his left side is clean. Most likely conclusion: someone on Rick's right side was the victim. The closest two people to Rick on that side are Maggie and Abraham. However, Negan refers to the person he's just killed as Rick's possible "right hand man", so that seems to discard Maggie as the victim. It is also possible that whoever the victim was could have been moved to Rick's right side before being beaten, but the last episode of season 6 did not suggest that such relocation of anyone happened before Negan began the beating, so the most logical conclusion, based on what has been shown so far, is that the victim is someone on Rick's right side, and whoever he or she is would not be too far from Rick since he got hit by some of the blood splatter.

[Moon Knight]

From what was shown in the "sneak preview" of the first episode of season 7, it might be possible to narrow down who got killed by Negan. ***POSSIBLE SPOILER AHEAD***:   We are shown a scene where Negan has just killed someone in the group and is teasing Rick and flaunting the bloody baseball bat in front of Rick's face. Rick has a splatter of blood on the RIGHT SIDE of his face, his left side is clean. Most likely conclusion: someone on Rick's right side was the victim. The closest two people to Rick on that side are Maggie and Abraham. However, Negan refers to the person he's just killed as Rick's possible "right hand man", so that seems to discard Maggie as the victim. It is also possible that whoever the victim was could have been moved to Rick's right side before being beaten, but the last episode of season 6 did not suggest that such relocation of anyone happened before Negan began the beating, so the most logical conclusion, based on what has been shown so far, is that the victim is someone on Rick's right side, and whoever he or she is would not be too far from Rick since he got hit by some of the blood splatter.   Dont be fooled by what happened at the end of 6X16 as Gimple himself said that scene was very impressionistic. I'm betting he drags the victim into the middle of the group like the comic.