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Thread: TWD 4x04 "Indifference" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

  1. #106
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    Personally,
    I agree with whoever said Rick doesn't mind executing people, he just has a problem when its not HIS CALL. That's 100% true. Every time he does it, the character himself, plus the viewers here leap to justify his killings, but that's exactly what Carol did. Kill and then justify.

    Rick's speech about "Not being their Governor" means NOTHING at this point. Under the guise of a personal decision he made a unilateral decision that could have VERY bad repercussions for the group. How? Here's 2: 1) Daryl refuses to accept it, and upon learning of the event and the reasoning behind it, leaves by himself to go in search of Carol. Anyone who even TRIES to make an argument Daryl wouldn't leave the group to its own devices whatever their circumstances while he did what he felt needs to be done hasn't been watching Daryl closely enough.

    2) If Herschel comes down debilitatingly ill, that leaves only Mr. Alcoholic The New Guy as the only semi-competent possessor of medical expertise. PLUS, given the report Rick is going to receive on Tyreese should Daryl and Co. survive to return to the Prison, it's quite arguable that Tyreese needs to be locked up. He didn't even APOLOGIZE for turning those gas-station Walkers loose with his blind-rage-induced hacking at the vegetation. Plus, on 2 separate occasions that run he's exhibited suicidal behavior. (Being incredibly late to leave the car, which would have endangered other lives had Rick been leading that run and not Daryl, because Rick would've demanded they go back for him, whereas Daryl made the right call to leave him behind...and refusing to let go of the Walker in the bushes, until he finally dragged it out and it landed on top of him, putting DARYL at risk to pull the Walker that NEVER SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN ONTO TYREESE in the FIRST PLACE off the man.)

    Rick kills people he feels need killing all the time. What Carol was trying to prevent WASN'T Karen and David moving about spreading it to others. She was trying to prevent exactly what happened to Herschel when Herschel was attending to the Doc. Ie: The primary caregivers being critically exposed to the disease by breathing in high concentrations of aerosolized infected blood from their wracking coughing fits.

    Which doesn't even take into account that the Prison is so short on healthy bodies that Herschel has GLENN, one of the sick helping him at this point. Oh yea, I'm just positive that using what little energy he has is improving Glenn's prognosis.

    Rick made a unilateral decision. Of the type that Shane was so often damned for, but simply because it's Rick that's OK with many folks. Not with me. Personally, upon hearing that Rick just "Voted someone off the Island, the moment he had them away from the Prison, I'd shoot the bastard in the back myself...because runs need to be made, but now Rick is completely untrustworthy as a run-leader. He might decide to exile Tyreese next for being a loose cannon....or Michonne for taking unnecessary risks that involves others putting themselves at risk to pull her ass out of the fire. That's the problem with a slippery slope. It's SLIPPERY. Today's judgment call/difficult decision is tomorrow's snap judgment. This is EXACTLY the sort of decision-making that LEADS to the evolution of entities such as the Governor.

    Bottom line: With most of the primary figures down or out of town, Rick felt he could get away with making a unilateral decision concerning Carol. And DUH, of COURSE it was Lizzie who killed them! Why ELSE would Carol have WANTED TO TAKE CHILDREN OUT INTO THE ZOMBIE-FILLED WASTES???

    Which is the other problem with a snap decision. It allows no time for human nature to play out, and for the truth to shake out, as it often does in these sorts of "small town" settings. But, let's say Rick DOES find out Carol DIDN'T do it. He's STILL gonna get a pass for his decision "Because he didnt know" right?

    I would kill anyone around me with a habit of playing God with the lives of others in a post-apocalyptic world. I'd rather go down like Shane trying to do what I thought was right. (And let's remember, one of the KEY issues for Shane in DECIDING to off Rick was his conviction that Rick's moralizing was going to get Lori, Carl, and Lori's unborn child killed. Wow, did he call that one or what?)

    Currently, the people at the Prison are Sheep, and Rick is the Judas Goat. Look up the term for yourself, it'll be educational.

  2. #107
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    People are mad because Rick made a stupid decision. 8 pages worth of discussion. I love it.

    Also, you think this is bad? It's nothing compared to all the stupid shit he does in the funny books.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by rongravy View Post
    I can't see how anyone could think that the Daryl scene with him bumping foreheads and being Mr. Badass was anything other than utter silliness, though.
    Oh no! I really dug that scene! Daryl was truly pissed off with this guy and absolutely 'cave manned' him down!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Oh no! I really dug that scene! Daryl was truly pissed off with this guy and absolutely 'cave manned' him down!
    Yeah, I agree. Daryl is a redneck at heart so it didn't seem silly at all to me.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Oh no! I really dug that scene! Daryl was truly pissed off with this guy and absolutely 'cave manned' him down!
    I also think there's an element of Daryl, having not really had to be in that position before - as a group leader having to sort out a troublemaker and life risker - that he doesn't quite know what to do. So he goes animalistic, stare him down, invade his personal space, muscle into him and be the physically dominant one.

    It did make me chuckle, but at the same time I totally got it and enjoyed the scene - because we were getting to see a side of Daryl we'd not seen before. Bob was left as a whimpering bugger up at the end of the encounter.

  6. #111
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    Bob's an interesting character already. I've warmed to him quite quickly.
    The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.

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  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidgloves View Post
    Bob's an interesting character already. I've warmed to him quite quickly.
    Yeah, he stands out and there's a lot of mystery around him. I hope we get to have enough of him before he gets snuffed out - Axel was killed off too soon.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Yeah, he stands out and there's a lot of mystery around him. I hope we get to have enough of him before he gets snuffed out - Axel was killed off too soon.
    +1.
    What a great season this has been. The praise seems to be universal bar a few outlets that I would class as comic book nerds (nothing wrong with that btw) who seem to think they have some sort of entitlement over the show/comic.
    The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.

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  9. #114
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    "I would kill anyone around me with a habit of playing God with the lives of others in a post-apocalyptic world." wyldraith

    Would you kill Carol? What person that Rick killed seemed out of line? The guy has made pour decisions but seems to be overly demonized here.

    If Carol was trying to protect caregivers how did she accomplish that by going into a confined space, knifing their brains, then drag their bleeding bodies outside. Completely over exposing herself and then being in proxemics with other healthy people.
    I usually agree with ya Wylde but the slippery soap in this equation starts with killing the sick.

    Edit. You are right about Rick making a unilateral decision as a slippery slope. Essentially he is worried about telling the truth to the group and seeing civil unrest, rage and anger take place and all the fallout that comes with it. The easier thing for him to do would have been take Carol back, tell the counsel members(actually everyone) and let the cards fall where they may. Put the burden on everyone's shoulder. I am torn about Carol. The whole situation sucks. The good news is TWD is on tv and delivering some serious entertainment. And by the disagreements/philosophies on this board I can see that group survival in the undead world would be far more difficult than I imagined
    Last edited by facestabber; 09-Nov-2013 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Add on

  10. #115
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    The logical solution would be to take Carol back and have the council do what they will with the truth. However, like someone pointed out, the council is broken. 2 if them are sick; and most likely Hershal. And Rick's not even sure that Daryl's group will return. He made the call for himself; to protect his children. It was a tough call and one I'm sure Rick is having a hard time taking in; hence why he keeps looking back in the rearview mirror.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  11. #116
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    The council is buggered up at this time ... but on the other hand they do live in a prison, which is pretty handy. They coulda locked her up!

    The choice made in the show is the most interesting possibility though, no doubt, the makers did the right thing here - I'm eager to find out where it all goes from here. I suppose for Rick it was a case of 'Who is this woman now? Is this the same woman I used to know and trust with my children? Can I trust her ever again?' ... plus, as he says, he's making the decision for him. Rick the father, not Rick the leader, wants her nowhere near the place because that's where his kids are.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 09-Nov-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    The council is buggered up at this time ... but on the other hand they do live in a prison, which is pretty handy. They coulda locked her up!

    The choice made in the show is the most interesting possibility though, no doubt, the makers did the right thing here - I'm eager to find out where it all goes from here. I suppose for Rick it was a case of 'Who is this woman now? Is this the same woman I used to know and trust with my children? Can I trust her ever again?' ... plus, as he says, he's making the decision for him. Rick the father, not Rick the leader, wants her nowhere near the place because that's where his kids are.
    Not to mention Carol pretty much asked Carl to keep secrets from his own father; and, as we know, Carl wasn't having that.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  13. #118
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    Rick made the right choice as far as I am concerned, taking her back and exposing her would do way more damage than his or any other solution IMO.

    He doesn't always get it right, I'm backing him on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidgloves View Post
    Bob's an interesting character already. I've warmed to him quite quickly.
    I said pretty much the same earlier on in this thread...I really thought he was shifty and not to be trusted at first...but it's becoming more a case of his shifty ways being down to his mental/stress and alcohol problems, not some evil intent.

    And yes, I'm pulling for him as well. Could be a good character and very useful member of the group if he can crush his inner demons.
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by facestabber View Post
    And by the disagreements/philosophies on this board I can see that group survival in the undead world would be far more difficult than I imagined
    The only real reasons all these philosophies come into play is because we're watching all this happen on a TV show. If that were reality, none of this would matter anymore. Debating the morality and philosophy of things is a luxury we have because we're on the outside looking in.
    Many will say they would remain moral and do the right thing regardless, and throw around some Dale quotes. But that too is a luxury afforded only by the fact that they aren't actually living in that reality.
    The undead world has a way of weeding out the idealists.

    Once you get to the point where you're a member of a group of hardcore survivors, you've dealt with the reality that you have to do what you have to do. If you haven't, then you are unlikely to have made it that far.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Personally,
    I agree with whoever said Rick doesn't mind executing people, he just has a problem when its not HIS CALL. That's 100% true. Every time he does it, the character himself, plus the viewers here leap to justify his killings, but that's exactly what Carol did. Kill and then justify.
    Well, yeah. But not all justifications are created equal. The question is whether it's a valid justification. I don't recall Rick ever intentionally killing anyone who was not actively hostile to him or his group. Declining to take responsibility for someone who is not part of the group (the backpacker) is different -- it's not like Rick ran him over or shot him while driving by, he left him alone just as though he was never there.
    "We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. They do not exist." - Queen Victoria

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