Corona Virus

[Exatreides]

Eh, I've been doing disaster response since 2014. I kind of expected this response from my time responding to hurricane Maria. The Trump administration bungled that response to an incredible degree. Following the disbanding of the 2018 pandemic response team, this is what I worried about. Not restocking the national PPE stores was kind of worrying too. At the start of this, nurses in Oregon were told that if they chose not work without PPE they could lose their licenses, which is insane and a horrible idea. Luckily PPE supplies have stabilized to an extent. However that situation could have been avoided.

[shootemindehead]

The WHO's dealings with CV19 were worrying, and almost certainly costly in lives and economic outcomes. The fact they seemingly took China at their word, repeating propaganda, is very concerning. Let's remember in mid Jan WHO were repeateding China's lies that there was no person to person transfer, something China clearly knew was not the case, and something that Taiwan had already told WHO in Dec was not the case... They then continued to suggest preventing flights from China would not be beneficial. We can only imagine what more insightful advice might have meant to Italy, who seemingly suffered due to direct flight from Wuhan. This is the tweet from the WHO on the 14th January. There's nothing really untoward here and they couldn't have had any real solid information about Chinese "lies". They are merely reporting what the Chinese have provided them with and considering that the outbreak was in Wuhan, the WHO have no reason to disbelieve them, as they were in the best position to provide any information at all. This is just two weeks after the Chinese first reported outbreaks of "pneumonia" on the 31st of Dec. Five days later the Chinese confirmed human to human transmission. In addition, when the WHO asked to be allowed into Wuhan in January, they were refused, as far as I'm aware. They only set foot in the country on the 9th of February and only then were able to conduct their own research and gather their own data from the primary site. Also, the information from Taiwan at the end of December was basically just a hunch that they queried with the WHO. A hunch based on their experience in 2003 with SARS. So, there were no facts there to go on and it isn't any kind smoking gun against the WHO either. Taiwan wasn't providing anything definite. The WHO aren't some sort of super power that have a crystal ball to see when a country is lying about something and when it isn't, and expecting them to start out at the beginning of a possible pandemic by calling the Chinese liars isn't sensible in the least. They needed Chinese cooperation in order to get boots on the ground in Wuhan. If they had accused China of lying they wouldn't have been allowed access and we'd all be in a bigger mess than we are now. As an organisation tackling Covid-19, the WHO have done little wrong here and I think some people are expecting miracles from them. In addition, they are merely being scapegoated by Trump and the Republicans, who's own actions leave a lot to be desired...and still do.

[Neil]

This is the tweet from the WHO on the 14th January. There's nothing really untoward here and they couldn't have had any real solid information about Chinese "lies". They are merely reporting what the Chinese have provided them with and considering that the outbreak was in Wuhan, the WHO have no reason to disbelieve them, as they were in the best position to provide any information at all. This is just two weeks after the Chinese first reported outbreaks of "pneumonia" on the 31st of Dec. Five days later the Chinese confirmed human to human transmission. In addition, when the WHO asked to be allowed into Wuhan in January, they were refused, as far as I'm aware. They only set foot in the country on the 9th of February and only then were able to conduct their own research and gather their own data from the primary site. Also, the information from Taiwan at the end of December was basically just a hunch that they queried with the WHO. A hunch based on their experience in 2003 with SARS. So, there were no facts there to go on and it isn't any kind smoking gun against the WHO either. Taiwan wasn't providing anything definite. The WHO aren't some sort of super power that have a crystal ball to see when a country is lying about something and when it isn't, and expecting them to start out at the beginning of a possible pandemic by calling the Chinese liars isn't sensible in the least. They needed Chinese cooperation in order to get boots on the ground in Wuhan. If they had accused China of lying they wouldn't have been allowed access and we'd all be in a bigger mess than we are now. Understood, but are you suggesting China has a reliable history of being open, honest and transparent? And yet this is how the WHO repeatedly treated them, and indeed congratulated them on. So, no the WHO does not have a crystal ball, but it does not require one to not trust China, or indeed heep praise where is simply does not belong. China knew the disease was spreading, yet tried to hide it, silencing whistle blowers, and indoing so, helped stread it around the globe. The WHO, simply took China at its world and was happy to repeat their rhetoric. Taiwan's input in Dec, along with a string of whistleblower accounts (what has China done to those poor folks!), should have bolstered the scepticism the WHO should have had from the outset as regards China! And when the Chinese wet markets seemingly responsible for not just CV19, but other similar pandemics opened, what did the WHO do? Praise it... As an organisation tackling Covid-19, the WHO have done little wrong here and I think some people are expecting miracles from them. In addition, they are merely being scapegoated by Trump and the Republicans, who's own actions leave a lot to be desired...and still do. Cannot agree. They took the word of one of the inhumane regimes on the planet. Ignored warnings dating back from numerous weeks before. And worse still, heaped praise on China for their "transparency?" As for the stick you're using to measure the success of Trump and the Republicans? Indeed, Trump has not been perfect in his handling of this disease. Some of what he's said has been counter productive to say the least IMHO. But I'd suggest few countries have been perfect in their handling of this unprecedented event. And to be fair, Trump acted fairly well in some areas. For example he acted against the advice of WHO and restricted flights from China (& other locations) which put the US wisely ahead of the curve. And of course the media and Democrats lambasted this action, even using odd descriptions of it being "racist". And of course this strange virtue signalling angle then led to major Democrats as little as two months ago endorsing hugging Chinese and "congregating in China Town", clearly which is as irresponsible and dangerous as it sounds! Surely those actions (from the press & Democrats) require measuring on the same scale as you deem necessary for the Republicans?

[EvilNed]

And when the Chinese wet markets seemingly responsible for not just CV19, but other similar pandemics opened, what did the WHO do? Praise it... This is another example of distorted facts. The wet markets have reopened, yes, but they no longer sell wild or live animals. In other words, they are just like any other wet market that you can find in any other country. As of today, wild animals and live animals are not being bartered in these places.

[Neil]

This is another example of distorted facts. The wet markets have reopened, yes, but they no longer sell wild or live animals. In other words, they are just like any other wet market that you can find in any other country. As of today, wild animals and live animals are not being bartered in these places. That's good then... But two points here:- 1) Surely their possible unhygenic conditions is still a risk? Mixing blood and feces etc, and putting that in close/constant contact to humans? 2) Why has it taken X repeated pandemics (seemingly) from them to get to this stage? ^ This is praise worthy actions?

[EvilNed]

That's good then... But two points here:- 1) Surely their possible unhygenic conditions is still a risk? Mixing blood and feces etc, and putting that in close/constant contact to humans? 2) Why has it taken X repeated pandemics (seemingly) from them to get to this stage? ^ This is praise worthy actions? 1) Again, the issue has been specifically wild life and live animals. These are now banned. Wet markets exist the world around. 2) Ask China, not the WHO.

[Neil]

1) Again, the issue has been specifically wild life and live animals. These are now banned. Does that include fish and poulty for example? Even so, I'd still question sanitation at these "markets. eg:- Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said last week the coronavirus was a “direct result” of unsanitary markets and said it was “mind-boggling” that the markets remained open. 2) Ask China, not the WHO. The WHO can't make recommendations to China? And couldn't over the past decade or two, after each pandemic that seemingly came out of these sources?

[EvilNed]

Does that include fish and poulty for example? Even so, I'd still question sanitation at these "markets. eg:- Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said last week the coronavirus was a “direct result” of unsanitary markets and said it was “mind-boggling” that the markets remained open. Go to any harbor, anywhere in the world and you'll find a fish market. Paultry is domesticated wildlife and if you want to ban humans co-existing with paultry then you've got to look at a lot of other places besides China. That is a worldwide phenomena. In China's case, the bartering of live paultry has been disbanded in many regions since the bird flu. What makes Anthony Fauci more trustworthy than WHO in this case? The WHO can't make recommendations to China? And couldn't over the past decade or two, after each pandemic that seemingly came out of these sources? I'm sure the WHO has issued recommendations to China since the first SARS outbreak. China can choose to listen or ignore.

[Neil]

So by my calculation, the US will pass one million (tested) infections early next week... I wonder what the true figure is? 10? 20? 50 million? Be fascinating to know! Go to any harbor, anywhere in the world and you'll find a fish market. Paultry is domesticated wildlife and if you want to ban humans co-existing with paultry then you've got to look at a lot of other places besides China. That is a worldwide phenomena. In China's case, the bartering of live paultry has been disbanded in many regions since the bird flu. What makes Anthony Fauci more trustworthy than WHO in this case? Agreed... Can but hope:- a) China are being honest about their actions towards wet markets. b) They are effective enough to prevent yet another pandemic from them.

[shootemindehead]

Understood, but are you suggesting China has a reliable history of being open, honest and transparent? The WHO aren't a political organisation and they wouldn't get anywhere by using cheap political shots at countries they need access to. They're not supposed to be going around and pointing fingers at nations who are deemed to be not "reliable" by other nations or people. If they did, their ability to their job would be curtailed significantly, and they have to be present in countries with much, much, worse reputations than modern day China. And yet this is how the WHO repeatedly treated them, and indeed congratulated them on. So, no the WHO does not have a crystal ball, but it does not require one to not trust China, or indeed heep praise where is simply does not belong. China knew the disease was spreading, yet tried to hide it, silencing whistle blowers, and indoing so, helped stread it around the globe. The WHO, simply took China at its world and was happy to repeat their rhetoric. Taiwan's input in Dec, along with a string of whistleblower accounts (what has China done to those poor folks!), should have bolstered the scepticism the WHO should have had from the outset as regards China! The WHO had no real choice BUT to place a certain amount of trust in what China were telling them, as that was where the outbreak was. They had no boots on the ground themselves and wouldn't have until a month and a half after China reported their "pneumonia" outbreak in Wuhan on December 31st. Not "trusting" China is a political point of view, not a medical or scientific one, which is what the WHO operate on. Starting out by kicking China in the balls would have simply made the Chinese close up and the rest of the world would have been worse off as a result. There is nothing good coming from a scenario like that. As for praise, this is what Trump, himself, had to say in January: In February, he said this: He praised China and President XI on numerous other occasions outside of his overused Twitter account too, up as far as Feb 29th, when he said this, “China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good.” Trump later tried to make it out that the WHO weren't doing their job and were too "China centric", whatever that nonsense is supposed to mean...“Had the WHO done its job to get medical experts into China to objectively assess the situation on the ground and to call out China’s lack of transparency, the outbreak could have been contained at its source with very little death” But this is disingenuous baloney. The WHO weren't even allowed into China until the second week of February and only then could they gather their own facts and start studying the data. So they were unable to make their own assessments before then and just like Trump were reliant on what the Chinese were telling them. Trump's wholly unreasonable damning of a body like the WHO is simply a way to shift focus away from him and his party's handling of the Coronavirus. Cannot agree. They took the word of one of the inhumane regimes on the planet. Ignored warnings dating back from numerous weeks before. And worse still, heaped praise on China for their "transparency?" You don't have to agree. The problem here though, is that you are willing to side with Trump in his deflection onto the WHO, while at the same time giving him a free pass for praising China and the Chinese President. As for the stick you're using to measure the success of Trump and the Republicans? Indeed, Trump has not been perfect in his handling of this disease. Some of what he's said has been counter productive to say the least IMHO. But I'd suggest few countries have been perfect in their handling of this unprecedented event. I don't think anyone has been fully on the ball with Covid-19. How could they? We're dealing with something that the world hasn't seen since the end of the First World War. No other outbreak has been the same. Not the 1958 Flu outbreak. Not SARS. Not MERS. This is a relatively new scenario to everyone involved and no amount of theoretical spread models were going to help with a virus that had some many asymptomatic people walking around. But playing silly and petty politics with an organisation that's at the forefront in fighting the virus, like Trump has done, is just low and unhelpful at the present time to say the very least. At a time when countries around the world should be seeking to work with the WHO, he's looking to create a division and make some political capital out of it.

[Neil]

The WHO aren't a political organisation and they wouldn't get anywhere by using cheap political shots at countries they need access to. "Cheap political shots" - We're talking about taking the word of and heralding the actions of one of the most ruthless regimes on the planet? "Cheap political shots"? ,,,willing to side with Trump in his deflection onto the WHO I'm not siding with Trump? Simply pointing out the WHO desperately need reform as they are not fit for purpose. They have shown/demonstrated a partisan relationship with China, which is not what they are funded to do, and is contrary to their mission statement. Indeed it was them dropping the ball in the early stated of CV19. ...while at the same time giving him [Trump] a free pass for praising China and the Chinese President. Fair point, but then where in your examples does Trump in anyway endorse their figures or statements of fact? eg: China saying there was no person to person transmission undoubtly weeks (a month) after they knew better. The WHO repeatedly ignore China's lies, or worse, or fell for their lies, and failed to [try to] investigate on the ground. They even ignored the telling signs of China's inhumane actions of silencing whistle blowers/doctors in their own country by force, which surely is not deserving of the praise of being "transparent"? - https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/whistl...usly-vanishes/ Do you not think Trump will more than likely hold China accountable at some point too? Quite rightly? Trump's wholly unreasonable damning of a body like the WHO is simply a way to shift focus away from him and his party's handling of the Coronavirus. Why would he wish to shift focus away from himself and his party's handling of the Coronavirus. Pretty much ticked all the important boxes, indeed even addressing immigration now. I'm assuming by your fair and reasonable comparison, you wouldn't suggest the Democrats virtue signalling hugging Chinese and breaking social distancing recommendations should be heralded as something positive? I have little doubt had Trump done it, that would be used as ammunition rather than strangely ignored by some folks... By all means Trump has said some questionable things, and/or poorly worded some things, but I'd suggest actions speaker louder than words, and are clearly more important, and his actions when compared to other nations have been good. NOTE: I fear we are now going in circles

[JDP]

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020...re-coronavirus

[Neil]

^ This (tactic) seems to appeal to some people, seemingly who get solace in demonising an individual beyond all levels of reason, down to some almost virtuous black and white, right and wrong thinking... I don't quite understand the thinking/approach myself

[JDP]

^ This (tactic) seems to appeal to some people, seemingly who get solace in demonising an individual beyond all levels of reason, down to some almost virtuous black and white, right and wrong thinking... I don't quite understand the thinking/approach myself What "tactic"? That's what that buffoon said and implied recently. Nothing more, nothing less. If it doesn't qualify as "certifiable", I don't know what does. The man is not even fit to be president of a high-school club, let alone of an actual entire nation.

[Neil]

What "tactic"? That's what that buffoon said and implied recently. Nothing more, nothing less. If it doesn't qualify as "certifiable", I don't know what does. The man is not even fit to be president of a high-school club, let alone of an actual entire nation. Fair enough... IMHO though, you're being unrealistic/unfair about matters. I seriously just can't fathom such extreme polarising and demonising. It hits me as almost fanatical TBH. I might suggest you need to stop taking some press at its word, as much of it is aimed at simply creating hysteria, to keep those hits and $ coming. They literally need to generate outrage to help them survive. Over and over... Maybe a good time to return to CV19 discussion? - - - Updated - - - So, yesterday the UK began trials of a vaccine - http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-04-23-...an-trial-stage Alas, this still means it's six months (I believe) away from actual use I believe similar trials are being carried in China, the US and Germany?