Harry Cooper vs. Rhodes

[darth los]

My question is: Who was the bigger a hole and why were they that way? There was really no reason for rhodes to act that way imo. I can understand that cooper was under alot of pressure because the threat was imminent, literally right at the front door. Was he that way because he was concerned for his familiy's safety? I doubt that because nothing he did i that film lead me to believe he was capable of anything altruistc. He even heard barbara screaming upstairs and didn't even check to see if she needed any help, so he obviously wasn't concerned with the lives of others. He deliberately bolted for the basement and left ben on the outside to be torn apart. Ben subsequently had to break in the door and the ghouls were able to get through it a few minutes later because it was weakened. I'll buy that he wanted to protect his daughter but i got the impression that he couldn't care less about what happened to his wife or anyone else for that matter. He might have even welcomed the ghouls dragging her away. Either way it's apparent that they haven't had sex in a long while. Rhodes is a different animal. Although the world was for all intents and purposes over run by the ghouls at that point he wasn't in the imminent danger that cooper was in. Was he just an ambitious officer who went on a power trip once he was in charge? Did he orchestrate Major Cooper's death? I say that because it's funny to me how an officer with that high a rank would get killed by zombies. As a matter of fact we never know what cooper died from. Rose could have very well killed him because he didn't like the way he was running things. One got the impression that cooper was much more sympathetic to the scientists and what they were trying to do than rhodes was. He also killed fisher and frankenstein in cold blood and stuffed sarah and billy in the coral to be zombie food. I don't think he ever intended to coexist peacefully with the civilians which he had nothing but contempt for. You could see that coming from the first meeting they had where logan was fashionably late. I think rhodes by far was the bigger a hole. It wasn't for fear for his life like cooper, he did it because he could.

[Philly_SWAT]

Well, Fisher said it himself that Cooper was a "sweetheart compared to Rhodes." (an inside reference to us fans). For sure, both characters were major a-holes in their respective films. The interesting thing to me is, both could be considered heroic in their own way. I think that GAR purposely made both characters this way. Let's look at what I mean. Cooper - In a world that is in the beginning stages of a zombie crisis, everyone gets a new "lease on life", so to speak. It doesnt matter anymore whether you were a doctor or a lawyer, or a garbage man or unemployed... the traditional view of your "worth" to society would be in a state of change. In this new world, it would be your actions, plans, and abilities to combat the zombie problem. In the beginning, like in Night, information was scarce. No one really had any idea what was happening, or what the proper course of action to take would be. No doubt most people, even those who appeared cool and level-headed, would be scared. I think it is safe to say that everyone in Night was scared at their plight. At this point, the person you are would not really change... if you were an a-hole, you would still be an a-hole. If you had a chip on your shoulder, you still would. If you were a ditsy blonde, you still would be. But what to do now? Cooper was obviously an a-hole. You could tell by his interaction with his wife Helen that they had a contenious marriage even before the zombie problem. Perhaps that contributed to his a-holeishness. In any event, he took in the events as he saw them. He saw a horde of zombies overturn his car, he saw them bite his daughter (who is now very sick), and did his best to find a safe refuge for his family. His idea was to stay in a well fortified position, the basement. Yes, he did not come upstairs when he heard Barbara screaming, but what he said was correct, for all he knew, someone was being torn apart by zombies, why risk the safety of the 5 people in the cellar to see what was going on? After a while with no new screams, he did advance into the house. He discovers Ben and Barb there, and says they should all go into the basement, where it was safe. Because of the people they were, Ben and Cooper did not get along at all right off the bat. Ben was portrayed as the "hero" of the movie, but in reality, Cooper was right. If they had all went down into the basement, they would have all survived (assuming they didnt get killed when Karen 'came back'). Regardless of his general demeanor, his plan of action was the one they should have followed. By following Ben's plan, they all ended up dead. Ironically, Ben survived the longest by following Cooper's original plan, barricading himself in the basement. Rhodes - Again, the scientific team, along with John and Billy, are portrayed as the heros of the film. However, look at their actual actions. Fisher is having no luck taming the zeds with "beef treats". Sarah makes no progress at all that we can see in either identifying the problem or coming up with a solution. Mainly, she just takes aspirin all the time, with no care that they may need them in the future, and bitches at everyone. Dr. Frankenstein seems to be making the most progress, but we see at the end that more than likely he is sinking into insanity, talking to his mommy, possibly talking to zombies he thinks is his mommy, and is feeding the soldiers to the flesh eaters, to make them behave. The soldiers have been thrust into a "civilian" operation, with no way to contact any outside superiors. A large percent of them have been killed. They are not seeing any tangible results from the scientists (neither is the audience). Yes they are acting a-holic at times, but how would any of us act? They were getting no sex (except Miguel, and he wasnt portrayed as being down with the rest of the soldiers), no intelligence, and had no hope. John and Billy were basically not helping anyone but themselves, except toward the end, and then only after John gave Sarah his "lets make some babies" speech. It stands to reason he wanted a little piece just as bad as the soldiers. As far as the "how did Cooper die" scenario, there is a lot I could say about that, but this is already a long post. We have to assume that Cooper was at least still trying to let the research team find some answers, but from what Fisher says, he wasnt exactly their biggest fan, so when Rhodes takes over, he decides to step up the "I wanna know what the f*ck youre doing with my time" line of reasoning. Little, if any, progress seemed to be going on in the cave as far as solving the problem goes, and it is totally understandable his frustration. Yes, he was an a-hole about it, but in the end, his men were dying, no answers were coming, and being stuck in that cave would totally suck for everyone. Seeing as they were on an island, perhaps they should have just went and "shot the piss out of" the zeds, cleared the island, and starting soaking up some sun. As far as who was the biggest a-hole, I would say Rhodes, but his character was more developed than Cooper, and Joe Pilato really embraced the role.

[MissJacksonCA]

without getting into it... i thought rhodes was the bigger a hole

[Khardis]

I guess it depends on your definition of A-hole. If I was Rhodes I would have cancelled the scientific crap the second I assumed command and abandoned the post for some safer place. If the Scientists didnt want to leave, then they could stay alone without military aid. They were bleeding men and supplies like crazy and here are these moron eggheads telling them they need to stick around because they may or may not find some kind of fix to the situation. Turns out there was no fix at all. Bub was 1 in a million and just because he didn't eat Frankenstein it doesn't mean he wouldn't eat anyone else. I say Rhodes was completely justified in his attitude towards them and his anger towards being there babysitting them. Cooper on the other hand, while an ahole wasn't any more of an ahole really than Ben, they were just both Alpha male types and both wanted to control the situation so they butt heads constantly. We just sympathize with Ben more because he was the main guy really. I personally sympathize with Cooper, the cellar was safer, and he was really only trying to protect his daughter.

[coma]

Definately Rhodes. Coopers main mistake was the "make your choice, upstairs or down. Im not opening the door" and all his B.S.ing about not hearing Barbara screaming. He was obviously a Jackass and he DID try to feed Ben to the Zombies. But the Scientific team may have been humanities last hope and orders are suppossed to be paramount to a serviceman. The orders were to help the SCIENTIFIC team and they DIDNT have to like it. RHodes had no concern for his own men and only liked the control and obviously wasnt fit or qualified for that posisition. And all the Rape inferences show that clearly as well as his treatment of Miguel (Is that his name, I am forgetting) and his abandonment of Steele, Rhodes and Torres (?) at the end. Rhodes couldve said "continue with your experiments, but we arent fetching anymore Zombies, you are on your own with that".

[sandrock74]

I think both guys have their seperate issues. I think Cooper acted on fear and Rhodes, remember folks, he was dealing with the situation for far longer! Years longer in fact! I think Rhodes was right in wanting to pull the plug on the scientific venture. Still, he was giving them time to show him something before he made it official. He just wasn't remotely polite about how he went about saying and doing things. Cooper was working under the assumption that help was coming, which it was, while Rhodes knew no help was around. I think he would've been happy securing the island and not having to deal with zombies for awhile. Take a "vacation" and come up with a plan. Both were a-holes but both had their points...

[darth los]

I think both guys have their seperate issues. I think Cooper acted on fear and Rhodes, remember folks, he was dealing with the situation for far longer! Years longer in fact! I think Rhodes was right in wanting to pull the plug on the scientific venture. Still, he was giving them time to show him something before he made it official. He just wasn't remotely polite about how he went about saying and doing things. Cooper was working under the assumption that help was coming, which it was, while Rhodes knew no help was around. I think he would've been happy securing the island and not having to deal with zombies for awhile. Take a "vacation" and come up with a plan. Both were a-holes but both had their points... We really have no idea how long they were in that silo. The original day script had it happening 5 years after the start of the plauge. However, no mention is made in the actual film as to a time frame. it could have been 6 months for all we know. I don't think it was years because for one thing the soldiers were distraught at the fact that they had stopped getting paid. Surely they would have stopped being compensated long ago if they were down there for years.

[Philly_SWAT]

But the Scientific team may have been humanities last hope and orders are suppossed to be paramount to a serviceman. The orders were to help the SCIENTIFIC team and they DIDNT have to like it. RHodes had no concern for his own men and only liked the control and obviously wasnt fit or qualified for that posisition. As the current situation in Irag demonstrates, it is a poor position to take militarily to just "stay the course" with no "victory" in sight. Yes, they were supposed to support the scientific team, however, with communications cut off, for all they knew if their superiors were still alive they wanted the mission changed. And as society degrades from order to chaos, the typical military structure would surely break down, just as the police structure broke down after only 3 weeks in Dawn. Plus, the military is obligated to not follow "immoral orders", so even under real life conditions, soldiers are sometimes supposed to question their orders. I think both guys have their seperate issues. I think Cooper acted on fear and Rhodes, remember folks, he was dealing with the situation for far longer! Years longer in fact! I agree that it was years that they were dealing with the problem. Cooper had no reason to think (and neither did Ben) that help wasnt coming, Rhodes had every reason to think that help wasnt coming. I don't think it was years because for one thing the soldiers were distraught at the fact that they had stopped getting paid. Surely they would have stopped being compensated long ago if they were down there for years. I took it that they had stopped being compensated long ago. The first guy says "I'm not getting paid enough for this $hit", just a common phrase, not even necesarily connected to actual pay (or lack thereof). The next guy says "Paid? I'm not getting paid at all" while laughing, and another says in the background "Paid? Youre getting paid?" (or something like that). I think it was more of a joke that they hadnt been paid in a long time, and were just having fun at the fact the first commented that he wasnt getting paid "enough". After all, what were they going to do with money if they were getting paid? "Lot's of real estate at close out prices, man".

[acealive1]

i'd have to side with rhodes. at least he'd fire a gun or help. just make him think he's in charge and dont mind him

[darth los]

I took it that they had stopped being compensated long ago. The first guy says "I'm not getting paid enough for this $hit", just a common phrase, not even necesarily connected to actual pay (or lack thereof). The next guy says "Paid? I'm not getting paid at all" while laughing, and another says in the background "Paid? Youre getting paid?" (or something like that). I think it was more of a joke that they hadnt been paid in a long time, and were just having fun at the fact the first commented that he wasnt getting paid "enough". After all, what were they going to do with money if they were getting paid? "Lot's of real estate at close out prices, man". Or you could take it as "you mean you got your check this month, funny mine hasn't arrived yet." Rickles was laughing about it but the others didn't think it was too funny. If that was indeed the case the plauge must nat have been that far along because they still believed money was important and had value. It's all about perspective and how people interpret the scene. We both could very well be right and more that likely will never know for sure. It sure Gives us alot to debate about doesn't it? i'd have to side with rhodes. at least he'd fire a gun or help. just make him think he's in charge and dont mind him What did rhodes ever do to give you the impression that he would help anyone. You saw how he left his men high and dry at the end. If they had stuck together they could have definitely made it to the back in one piece. He was nothing but a coward and a bully.

[RustyHicks]

I don't know, hard choice. Coope and Rhodes were both arrogant and cowards at heart. Cooper left Ben outside and he wouldn't lift a finger to help out with anything. Tom and Ben did all the work. Rhodes loved to throw his weight around and fill his ego up, but all the hot air flying from his mouth you still see he's a chicken at heart. Look at how he got one of his men to shoot Sarah, it was only Johnny who saved her. When it came time to beat John up, did he become tough and do it himself. Nope, he got steele to do it. Rhodes was evil at heart, he would stab anyone in the back to get ahead and save his own ass, without or without a zombie plague going on. Cooper, I would go with cooper. He may have been scared and with reason, he hasn't encountered anything like this and didn't know what do to. He didn't have the training that Rhodes had, he delt with things as they were thrown at him and may have seemed wicket and evil, he was just scared for himself, his wife and his child.

[Philly_SWAT]

Or you could take it as "you mean you got your check this month, funny mine hasn't arrived yet." Rickles was laughing about it but the others didn't think it was too funny. If that was indeed the case the plauge must nat have been that far along because they still believed money was important and had value. It's all about perspective and how people interpret the scene. We both could very well be right and more that likely will never know for sure. It sure Gives us alot to debate about doesn't it? I dont think you can take it that way. There is nothing to give the impression that they have had contact with anyone for a long time, much less received any type of re-supply. Highly unlikely that someone would send a plane with paychecks without also including some new radio equipment, equipment that wasnt plagues with "dry-rot and rust". And I dont think they had any ability to check their direct deposit in those days, much less under those conditions. Also, I think that the others did think it was funny. They were are smoking some weed at that point, and appeared very jovial to me. What did rhodes ever do to give you the impression that he would help anyone. You saw how he left his men high and dry at the end. If they had stuck together they could have definitely made it to the back in one piece. He was nothing but a coward and a bully. Good point about leaving his men high and dry. Although, Rickles and Steele probably could have ran faster than that golf cart, rather than just standing there yelling "RHOOOODES!". Golf carts are designed to save your energy from having to exert energy from walking, not to haul ass. But you are right. Rhodes even locked the door behind him, making it neccesary for Steele to shoot it open, thus allowing the hordes in. That alone should elevate Rhodes to A-hole of the year over Cooper.

[darth los]

Good point about leaving his men high and dry. Although, Rickles and Steele probably could have ran faster than that golf cart, rather than just standing there yelling "RHOOOODES!". Golf carts are designed to save your energy from having to exert energy from walking, not to haul ass. But you are right. Rhodes even locked the door behind him, making it neccesary for Steele to shoot it open, thus allowing the hordes in. That alone should elevate Rhodes to A-hole of the year over Cooper. As a matter of fact, steel's fat ass did make it to the door. Torres didn't have any weapons so he was automatically screwed. One has to wonder what qualities elevated rhodes to the rank of capt. It was apparent that he was awful under pressure and din't seem like a very effective leader to me. Alos, even if they did make it into that hallway area they seemed to besurrounded on all sides by zeds. They couldn't leave if they wanted to. They could however stock up on as much guns and ammo as they could and systematically kill them off with the door that rhodes opened before he was ripped apart as the choke off point. There couldn't have been more than 200-300 of those things down there if how many that came down on the elevator was any indication. But what would they have done then? The chopper would have been long gone. I hope they like sausage !!

[Philly_SWAT]

One has to wonder what qualities elevated rhodes to the rank of capt. One has to wonder the same thing about our current President.......

[darth los]

One has to wonder the same thing about our current President....... Philly, that has to be the realest sh8t you ever wrote. Finally something we can agree on.