My Lai 2012?

[Tricky]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...82A02X20120311 That nutcase has probably just recruited an entire army of Taliban with his actions, and there will no doubt be more deaths among ISAF troops as a result, it'll be interesting to hear what his explanation is. I personally think its high time we quit that sorry shithole of a country and stop trying to turn it into a shining beacon of democracy when it clearly is never going to happen. The UK has now lost over 400 good lads out there and I know the US has lost a lot more, has any of it been worth it? Their stories are all here http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Fa...Fatalities.htm

[Neil]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...82A02X20120311 That nutcase has probably just recruited an entire army of Taliban with his actions, and there will no doubt be more deaths among ISAF troops as a result, it'll be interesting to hear what his explanation is. I personally think its high time we quit that sorry shithole of a country and stop trying to turn it into a shining beacon of democracy when it clearly is never going to happen. The UK has now lost over 400 good lads out there and I know the US has lost a lot more, has any of it been worth it? Their stories are all here http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Fa...Fatalities.htm Do you not fear that if we just dash out, and leave the country to fall back into the mess it was:- a) All the deaths there would have been for nothing. b) It will also threated to destabilise Pakistan?

[Tricky]

Do you not fear that if we just dash out, and leave the country to fall back into the mess it was:- a) All the deaths there would have been for nothing. b) It will also threated to destabilise Pakistan? The tragic part is it will anyway, the Afghan national army will crumble as soon as we pull out whether we do it now or in ten years time, and the Taliban will get all the lovely Gucci kit that we've equipped them with courtesy of the British taxpayer. All those lads we've lost there have died for nothing despite every single one of them being a credit to their regiments and Britain. We achieved what we went in there to do a long time ago - i.e. smash Al Qeadas Afghan bases - all we're doing now is wasting time, money and lives while annoying the locals who just want us gone. As for Pakistan, it already looks pretty unstable to me...

[Sammich]

This incident is NOTHING compared to all of the "collateral damage" (i.e. innocent civilian deaths) that has been caused over the years by drone strikes, but it's negative impact will be much more significant as it wasn't done by a faceless CIA armchair video game warrior 6,000 miles away. If Bin Laden is now dead, then why is the U.S. still in Afghanistan? To guard the poppy fields?

[Neil]

while annoying the locals who just want us gone Not quite as black and white as that is it... I suspect a lot of folks are joyful at the Taliban being out of power! As for Pakistan, it already looks pretty unstable to me... Well, most of the terrorist activity comes from there, so the last thing we want is to make it even worse...

[Tricky]

Not quite as black and white as that is it... I suspect a lot of folks are joyful at the Taliban being out of power! From what I gather from people who have served there the ordinary locals arent really bothered one way or the other, they just want us gone so that they dont have firefights going on in their neighbourhoods on a regular basis or their kids picking up IED's. Every incident like this one or a misplaced JDAM or even killing cattle etc is just turning the locals sympathy towards the Taliban rather than ISAF.

[Neil]

From what I gather from people who have served there the ordinary locals arent really bothered one way or the other, they just want us gone so that they dont have firefights going on in their neighbourhoods on a regular basis or their kids picking up IED's. Every incident like this one or a misplaced JDAM or even killing cattle etc is just turning the locals sympathy towards the Taliban rather than ISAF. Hmmm... Don't know what the answer is... I guess though the idea was to get Alqaeda out, and that's pretty much been achieved. But now were taking the Taliban on, and the difficultly there is it's a cultural disposition for their dominance. It's just a mess. And the the fact Taliban militants have vowed to avenge the deaths show the level of madness. So a mentally deranged US soldier goes on a killing sprea. The Taliban then make a considered plan to go an kill other innocent people to even the scales? Balmy!

[Tricky]

And the the fact Taliban militants have vowed to avenge the deaths show the level of madness. So a mentally deranged US soldier goes on a killing sprea. The Taliban then make a considered plan to go an kill other innocent people to even the scales? Balmy! Yeah, but I guess its also tied in with that recent video of US troops urinating on dead Taliban and burning the Muslim holy book, really doesnt do our supposedly noble cause any favours. The whole thing is just a mess really.

[Danny]

From what I gather from people who have served there the ordinary locals arent really bothered one way or the other, they just want us gone so that they dont have firefights going on in their neighbourhoods on a regular basis or their kids picking up IED's. so normal folk living in a warzone then...

[SymphonicX]

First the burning of the Koran, and now the massascre of innocent children... That's done it. That's totally done it. Those two events have single handedly ruined any small chance of gaining the respect of the Afghan people and it's given fuel to the Taliban propaganda machine for decades if not hundreds of years! These two events will be promoted as not just a justification, but as an example of brutal Western military intervention. Bit of a shame - but that's now made it all in vain. If you went back ten years and asked the average person "what two things do you think we could do to inflame secular hate against the entire Western world?" the answers would most likely come back as "I dunno, piss on a bunch of Korans and kill some innocent Afghany kids"... I mean...what could one possibly possibly do that would be worse? And of COURSE the taliban are going to cry vengeance! That's not "balmy"...not at all. if someone killed a bunch of your friends/family I think the first thing you'd cry is vengeance. Just look at 9/11 - people didn't even need to know who'd actually committed the atrocity before loudly proclaiming we should bomb every middle eastern country in the world in retaliation. It's a natural reaction to shout about getting revenge. If they simply turned a blind eye to this atrocity, how would they hold onto their power? Of course they are going to cry vengeance. We would too. There's nothing balmy about it. They see us as the enemy - so why does that seem anything but quite rational? I don't blame them for screaming vengeance, not at all. Doesn't matter when we leave now - it's f*cked. Doesn't matter if we wiped out the entire taliban (which is entirely impossible), another secular tribe would use the atrocities committed before and after as further reason to take up arms against the west. These situations have well and truly fucked any political chances with the Taliban - who are there to stay.

[Tricky]

so normal folk living in a warzone then... Indeed, but one which has already dragged on for twice the length of World War 2 with no sign of a victory for either side...

[shootemindehead]

I have no doubt in my mind that this massacre is just one of many. The only reason we've heard about it, is because it hadn't been locked down securely. In a conflict where there is no real idea what one is fighting for, these types of events are bound to happen. Most of the western soldiers on the ground over there haven't the first clue on what they're there for, or who they're really fighting, or what the endgame is/was supposed to be. Add to that the general distrust of western motives in the region (and the Middle East in general), which is held by a lot of the personnel and it's a boiling pot that can go over very easily. As for getting rid of Al Qaeda; they may have been ousted from Afghanistan (to all intents and purposes), but they've been scattered very far and wide now and their reach is long, as evidenced by their contribution in Libya last year and Syria now, which is not good for anyone in those areas. The simple fact is, is that the western powers took their eye of the Afghan ball (deliberately), because the prize of oil in Iraq proved too much of a draw to the long term interests of George Bush's string-pullers, who don't care a jot about Al Qaeda, The Taliban or Afghans.

[Danny]

I have no doubt in my mind that this massacre is just one of many. The only reason we've heard about it, is because it hadn't been locked down securely. In a conflict where there is no real idea what one is fighting for, these types of events are bound to happen. Most of the western soldiers on the ground over there haven't the first clue on what they're there for, or who they're really fighting, or what the endgame is/was supposed to be. Add to that the general distrust of western motives in the region (and the Middle East in general), which is held by a lot of the personnel and it's a boiling pot that can go over very easily. sad but true, combine that with war weariness from western armys used to a crushing smackdown- and the volunteer nature of such armys and the modern idea of the trained machine of the marine infantry is skewd when they have to 'settle' and lower standards.... pic related.

[Mike70]

i have become so numb to this kind of stuff that it is terrible to say that i no longer care. this world seems to be bent on a path towards self-destruction for a vast number of reasons. the deaths of afghan civilians is just a small, small part of the idiocy and madness that seems to be gripping our planet. i'm deeply pessimistic about everything now and my pessimism is matched only by my complete, total and utter indifference to such things. sorry folks, i have simply lost the ability to care. i know what the soldiers in iraq and afghanistan are going through and i must block it out. i joined the army when i was young out of deep desire to serve and protect this republic. all it got me was a trip to somalia and an adulthood full of psychiatric problems because of things that i saw and did (some of which fucking haunt my sleep and make it hard to look in the mirror sometimes). am i really the monster that did that? am i a person? i've been trying to figure that out since 1993 and when i go to the clinic and see the WWII vets and korea vets who have finally come forward for treatment, i think that i might never figure it out. that is why with very few exceptions made for some extremely old friends, i retreat further everyday into myself, into music, into my guitar, into literature; because i simply want nothing to do with this nightmarish and horrible world. but i come from a family that ages like numenoreans, so i'm probably stuck here for a good bit, because as horrible as i find this world, i intend to hold on to every single second i have coming to me - maybe i just want to be around for the ending.

[Tricky]

Sorry to hear you're still going through that Mike, I knew you'd served but didnt realise you were affected by it that much. Shame theres that fucking great big ocean in the way or I'd say get your arse out for a beer with me!