TWD 8x09 "Honor" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x09 "Honor" specifically inside this thread. If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know). Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all. Enjoy! Directed by: Greg Nicotero Written by: Matthew Negrete & Channing Powell It's back, folks. Time to finish off All Out War!

[Neil]

Christ I hope the series improves...

[Moon Knight]

Christ I hope the series improves... Me too, man. Me too.

[MinionZombie]

Gee, that's the spirit... Seriously, though, from what I've read 8b is all about polishing off All Out War (ergo, more thrust and direction) and setting up a new world for Season 9 - at which point Angela Kang is taking over as showrunner.

[Moon Knight]

What I'm hoping for is All out War to end before the finale and 8x16 is all setup for the next story line.

[beat_truck]

What I'm hoping for is All out War to end before the finale and 8x16 is all setup for the next story line. Agreed. Time to move on. Negan and his one liners just aren't interesting enough to drag into another season. I also hope the show improves, but I'm not holding my breath. It's never going to have the magic the first seasons had, but it still has the potential to be good.

[Moon Knight]

I’m never gonna expect it to be like it once was; the comic was never able to capture that magic after AoW neither. What I do hope is a fresh coat of paint for not just the storylines and character, but for the narrative structure as well. Time to move away from the formula.

[facestabber]

I reflect on all the moments of Rick and Carl at the quarry, farm, prison Terminus etc etc. A father teaching his boy about life. A different kind of life for sure but it was always building toward a passing of the torch. And that torch certainly got snuffed tonight. Carl has never been my favorite character but I respected his role and necessity for this show. Right now I feel cheated. It almost felt as if Gimple tossed the entire premise out the window and offed Carl as a way to justify keeping Negan alive. This is my show. I won't quit on it but I'm am very nervous where this may be going.

[Moon Knight]

I’m okay with Judith getting the shine as long as there is a decent enough time jump.

[JDP]

Didn't anyone inform Henry that Gavin wasn't responsible for killing his brother? It was that a-hole with the long hair (now a prisoner at the Hilltop) that was responsible for that. Also: was it smart of Carl to shoot himself? What if he is in fact immune to the zombie disease and he is only going through some superficial symptoms, and in the end would end up getting well and surviving? Sure, it's a slim chance that such is the case, but you never know... I sure as heck would not do it. Never lose hope until you have actually kicked the bucket. Once you are dead, if you come back let someone else take care of you. There's nothing to lose now.

[MinionZombie]

Wow - that was an emotional rollercoaster of a gut wrencher! All the father/son Rick/Carl stuff was great but also tough to watch, the writers did a great job with all that stuff. While I'm sad to see Carl go, and it is a major departure from the comics, the comics do/did have a gigantic plot hole that needed filling in. Was killing Carl the way to do it? That's up for debate, but the lessons he leaves Rick with in death are potent. As for Rick against the tree with a serious wound in his torso - I dearly hope they're not stupid enough to kill Rick - but I've got enough trust, because him saying "my mercy prevails over my wrath" (as glimpsed in 8x01) would be pretty damn pointless if he was just bumped off. The man has to shepherd Judith through the apocalypse now - speaking of which, the handing of the hat over to Judith was excellent (they got some really good reaction shots out of the little girl, too) - and topped off with Daryl's respectful farewell to Carl as he protects Judith (the Rick/Daryl brotherhood reaffirmed) ... I was welling up, I gotta say. Some powerful stuff going on in this episode. One gripe - Morgan's slow on the uptake, isn't he? He's got a line of sight on the gunners in the windows who are popping walker heads and he doesn't try to take them out! A bit of judicious editing (to make it appear like a very short moment of time - like a few seconds) and that would have papered over the issue with how that scene was covered. But that's really my only gripe from this episode. While Henry has killed the wrong man in Gavin, why would they have told the kid specifically which man killed his brother anyway? Besides, there's an interesting mirror image to Carl in Henry (not staying in the house, lol, as well as killing someone when they're too immature to know the impact of such an action) and the jolt it gives Morgan is quite necessary as he was full pelt going down the "I need to clear" road again. Also - the moment where Morgan tears that dude's guts out through the gunshot wound? Awesome! Nice to see some nasty gore in there after Season 7 got a little shy on some occasions. Also: was it smart of Carl to shoot himself? What if he is in fact immune to the zombie disease and he is only going through some superficial symptoms, and in the end would end up getting well and surviving? Sure, it's a slim chance that such is the case, but you never know... I sure as heck would not do it. Never lose hope until you have actually kicked the bucket. Once you are dead, if you come back let someone else take care of you. There's nothing to lose now. There's been zero evidence of people not turning after being bitten, so why would they start thinking that now? Just because you might deal with it one way, doesn't mean Carl is going to deal with it that way. The reason Carl shot himself was purely to spare both Rick and Michonne the agony of having to do it (and Carl would know a thing or two about that agony, having been in the position where he had to execute his mother lest she turn). Thematically, that was a really nice way to tie that whole thing up, as well. - - - Updated - - - Really looking forward to the next episode - and indeed the rest of Season 8b. 8x09 Memes:

[Moon Knight]

Yeah, good material, while a bit long, his goodbye scenes really choked me up a bit. Loved the opening montage. - - - Updated - - - MZ- that first meme

[facestabber]

JDP I too hope that immunity will happen at some point. I really hope it's Rick but maybe it will be Judith. The only way we're gonna find out is if someone gets bit, doesn't choose suicide and battles the fever but pulls through. As far as anyone expecting to be immune or hopeful for it I'd say that's a dead cause due to what Dr Jenner told them at CDC. And additionally by everything they have seen since. So if/when it happens it will be a surprise. But whoever it is will be a very important person for research and potentially creating a cure. And I'm still bummed by Carl. I just don't believe it was a good move.

[JDP]

But that's really my only gripe from this episode. While Henry has killed the wrong man in Gavin, why would they have told the kid specifically which man killed his brother anyway? Why wouldn't they? Specially seeing as how hell-bent on revenge the kid is, it would seem only appropriate to let him know who exactly is it that is responsible for his brother's death. There's been zero evidence of people not turning after being bitten, so why would they start thinking that now? Just because you might deal with it one way, doesn't mean Carl is going to deal with it that way. The reason Carl shot himself was purely to spare both Rick and Michonne the agony of having to do it (and Carl would know a thing or two about that agony, having been in the position where he had to execute his mother lest she turn). Thematically, that was a really nice way to tie that whole thing up, as well. As facestabber's post implies, that is because no one in the group seems to have thought deep enough about such a possibility (and it is very possible, since we know of other diseases that are deadly to most people but yet some people are immune to them.) They just seem to take for granted that no one is immune. But what if someone actually IS??? How are they going to ever find out if they don't give all bitten people the chance of going through the whole process and seeing if they actually make it through without dying and becoming a zombie? Once you are dead and come back, your friends or family can take care of not letting you remain a zombie. Call it the "Roger" (from Dawn) policy, if you will. Just wait long enough to see what happens. If the bitten person dies and becomes a zombie, he/she is quickly put out of his/her misery then, but not before. It means he/she was not immune. But if someone makes it through... BINGO! You have a very good chance at solving the zombie problem.

[beat_truck]

It might solve the problem of people returning as zombies, but it sure won't solve the little problem of the millions (possibly billions?) already walking around. Killing Coral off was definitely a questionable decision. As far as Rick's wound at the end, surely they aren't stupid enough to kill him off. Hopefully. If they do, I will absolutely be done with the show.