TWD 8x04 "Some Guy" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x04 "Some Guy" specifically inside this thread. If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know). Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all. Enjoy! Directed by: Dan Liu Written by: David Leslie Johnson A new weapon in the Savior arsenal proves to be a giant hurdle as fighting continues between Rick's forces and those of the Saviors.

[Moon Knight]

My favorite episode this season so far. In fact, one of my favorites in all the series. Ezekiel needed this to happen. This episode had it all for me. From great character moments, a sad character death, brutal kills, and classic zombie moments. Even that Jeffrey Dahmer looking Savior felt right. Rip, Shiva.

[MinionZombie]

My favorite episode this season so far. In fact, one of my favorites in all the series. Ezekiel needed this to happen. This episode had it all for me. From great character moments, a sad character death, brutal kills, and classic zombie moments. Even that Jeffrey Dahmer looking Savior felt right. Rip, Shiva. haha! I was thinking of Dahmer with that creepy Saviour dude, too! Shiva's death was heroic, but also heartwrenching - and it played into the pulling down of King Ezekiel. Really good episode for the character as he was mercilessly picked apart piece by piece over the duration. Also - Carol kicking mucho bottom was a joy to behold. Big losses for The Kingdom in this one, even Gerry's axe is kaput! How will they continue as a community from this point forward? All the loved ones who marched out with the King have perished ... ouch. Before anyone asks "why did the Saviours shoot Ezekiel from their gun nest?" - 1) orders are to bring him back alive, 2) they were out of ammo (the rest was on the truck).

[JDP]

A bit hard to believe that a well-seasoned fighter like Carol did not think to simply shoot the truck's tires to prevent the two Saviors from being able to easily escape with the guns while she went to rescue Ezekiel and Jerry. And no, it would not take a lot of ammo to do this. A couple of well-placed shots would be enough to do the job of immobilizing or at least slowing down that truck. There are no valid excuses for her to have allowed it to so easily get away. Also, a bit hard to believe that Rick's jeep could actually survive full-front bullet impacts from a friggin' .50 caliber gun! That would have stopped it right in its tracks.

[MinionZombie]

Just thinking about The Kingdom's people - some of those who left with Ezekiel will still be alive (the ones who splintered off to help take that outpost Team Rick had previously hit ... ... well, some of those who splintered off, anyyway!) A bit hard to believe that a well-seasoned fighter like Carol did not think to simply shoot the truck's tires to prevent the two Saviors from being able to easily escape with the guns while she went to rescue Ezekiel and Jerry. And no, it would not take a lot of ammo to do this. A couple of well-placed shots would be enough to do the job of immobilizing or at least slowing down that truck. There are no valid excuses for her to have allowed it to so easily get away. Also, a bit hard to believe that Rick's jeep could actually survive full-front bullet impacts from a friggin' .50 caliber gun! That would have stopped it right in its tracks. Hindsight is gloriously 20/20, isn't it? In the heat of the battle you're not necessarily going to think with perfect precision and clarity - even Carol - especially so after so many of your people have been gunned down. The .50 cal shooting the jeep - welllll, he abandoned the vehicle very quickly thereafter, and it was the radiator that took the hit ... ... but at the same time it's a ruddy .50 cal. A smidge more 'reason for poor aim' for the gunner (e.g. Rick popping off shots at the gunner) would have helped tidy it up a bit, but sometimes there's only so much action you can cram into a sequence. Aside from that the sequence was fun.

[JDP]

Hindsight is gloriously 20/20, isn't it? In the heat of the battle you're not necessarily going to think with perfect precision and clarity - even Carol - especially so after so many of your people have been gunned down. The .50 cal shooting the jeep - welllll, he abandoned the vehicle very quickly thereafter, and it was the radiator that took the hit ... ... but at the same time it's a ruddy .50 cal. A smidge more 'reason for poor aim' for the gunner (e.g. Rick popping off shots at the gunner) would have helped tidy it up a bit, but sometimes there's only so much action you can cram into a sequence. Aside from that the sequence was fun. Carol is cold and calculating. She has shown this over and over. Very unlikely that she would have just left without stopping or slowing down that truck she was there with the express purpose to stop from leaving. We see that Rick's jeep got hit with .50 caliber bullets right in its front part several times. You know, right where the engine happens to be. That jeep would have been stopped right there. It was not armor plated, so no way that it would have stopped .50 caliber bullets from making it into the engine and causing fatal damage. Just in case anyone is wondering what a .50 caliber machine gun can do to a non-armored car, take a look here: http://www.wideopenspaces.com/m2-50-...oys-car-video/ There is just NO FRIGGIN' WAY that Rick's jeep could possibly have kept on going after several full-front hits with one of these machine guns. The engine would have been ripped to shreds.

[Moon Knight]

In the real world things don’t always happen like you want. Carol shoots the tires then the Saviors can’t leave and will just continue to go after Carol while her friends are eaten at the gate.

[JDP]

In the real world things don’t always happen like you want. Carol shoots the tires then the Saviors can’t leave and will just continue to go after Carol while her friends are eaten at the gate. They were pretty much out of ammo, as Carol suspected. Otherwise they would not have been hiding behind the truck instead of shooting at her.

[Moon Knight]

They were pretty much out of ammo, as Carol suspected. Otherwise they would not have been hiding behind the truck instead of shooting at her. Idk, man, those guys would probably still rush her. Me personally, I really like when the heroes aren’t perfect and don’t always make the best choices. Carol is pretty over the top as it is as a believable badass. They ain’t always gonna make the right decisions and they shouldn’t; especially in the heat of the moment.

[MinionZombie]

Idk, man, those guys would probably still rush her. Me personally, I really like when the heroes aren’t perfect and don’t always make the best choices. Carol is pretty over the top as it is as a believable badass. They ain’t always gonna make the right decisions and they shouldn’t; especially in the heat of the moment. Damn skippy. There's fantasy for dramatic purpose and fantasy for practical reasons. If Carol had shot out the tyres then you wouldn't have the chase sequence in the final act ... although I do agree that the use of a .50 cal was problematic in terms of "realism". It's really problematic trying to create a relatively "realistic" genre show - you have to use so many genre conventions and shortcuts, while also trying to be "realistic". It's an utter minefield. A couple of little tweaks (e.g. more swerving from the humvee and Rick firing wild shots would have made the gunner even less accurate). However, these sequences are so tricky to stage as it is (and certainly with a limited budget and schedule) that you sometimes just have to let things go and be imperfect. They probably had to get that whole sequence bashed out in half a day (a day tops), probably - so you're really getting it as best as it can be got with those restraints. I also wouldn't simply describe Carol as "cold". She's capable of being cold and calculating, but she went through hell in Season 6/7 having to come to terms with her actions - her response was anything but "cold", if you ask me. Re-watched the death of Shiva again, and it's like the very heart of King Ezekiel being destroyed - indeed, the entire symbol of The Kingdom itself. In terms of the story structure ... this was somewhat of a "bottle" episode, in that for the majority of the running time it was Ezekiel/Carol/Gerry with a segment for Rick/Daryl. I would like to see more of the overall getting told simultaneously inside each episode, but the story of this episode kind of demands this particular focus. I see we'll get some Negan next week - but three episodes without him? Again, we circle back to the problem of having such a vast cast (whose popularity on the show makes them in-demand actors gaining jobs elsewhere). It must be a scheduling nightmare to put it all together! I imagine this will partly determine the story structure. I would like to see a more 'fragmented' way of telling the story, so you get some pieces of more of the cast more regularly ... but then if you're trying to deal with a particular character or theme inside an episode that causes more problems than it fixes. It would be nice, though, to get some 'pieces' of the other characters to dot across each episode, so some of the cast don't go AWOL too long. Weird, too, because we've had three episodes without anything new relating to that guy at the petrol station or Rick's rather frazzled look that was linked to that. If you're going to get 'pieces' then you need to keep getting 'pieces' drip-fed to you, not have it abandoned only to be picked up along the line. However, even lots of simultaneous fragments can be problematic - West World was telling multiple stories across multiple points in time with the same characters (unbeknownst to the audience), which made it a difficult watch for the majority of the season until it was all revealed in the finale how it pieced together ... but the overall structure of West World was so complex that it was difficult to know what the hell was going on and why, at times. With TWD, on the other hand, we do know what's going on.

[Moon Knight]

Damn right, MZ. Most fans don’t realize they only get 6 days to film an episode and with a limited budget. They don’t get 10 mil like Game of Thrones does. That’s why I’m a bit more forgiving for imperfection with the bigger action sequences. Shiva went down quicker imo due to being attacked by walkers covered in deadly chemicals. One bite from one of the things covered in that crap must not feel really nice. Notice how they bled the chemicals when Jerry sliced them? That’s why they just couldn’t go in and slaughter them wildly. Kinda like how the Xenomorphs bled acid in Aliens. There was also some heavy foreshadowing for Ezekiel’s future written in as well. Also, MZ, Westworld was awesome haha. Good comparison there. The actors schedule’s really affected this first half big time.

[JDP]

Damn skippy. There's fantasy for dramatic purpose and fantasy for practical reasons. If Carol had shot out the tyres then you wouldn't have the chase sequence in the final act ... although I do agree that the use of a .50 cal was problematic in terms of "realism". It's really problematic trying to create a relatively "realistic" genre show - you have to use so many genre conventions and shortcuts, while also trying to be "realistic". It's an utter minefield. A couple of little tweaks (e.g. more swerving from the humvee and Rick firing wild shots would have made the gunner even less accurate). However, these sequences are so tricky to stage as it is (and certainly with a limited budget and schedule) that you sometimes just have to let things go and be imperfect. They probably had to get that whole sequence bashed out in half a day (a day tops), probably - so you're really getting it as best as it can be got with those restraints. I also wouldn't simply describe Carol as "cold". She's capable of being cold and calculating, but she went through hell in Season 6/7 having to come to terms with her actions - her response was anything but "cold", if you ask me. The issue with the .50 caliber bullets hitting the front of Rick's jeep and it remaining operational long enough to allow Rick to catch up with the truck could have easily been given a dose of believability by making his jeep have some armor plating: a thick steel plate positioned at the front of the jeep, for example, would have done the job of either stopping, deflecting or at least slowing down and lessening the penetration of the .50 caliber bullets into the engine part of the vehicle. And we should not be surprised at all that any vehicle in the apocalypse could very well have improvised armor already fitted on it. This is just lazy writing again. When I say that Carol is cold and calculating I mean in combat situations. She's the kind of combat-hardened person for whom it would have been very natural to think ahead and impair the mobility of the truck before leaving to do something else, rather than have it easily drive away with its dangerous cargo.

[shootemindehead]

My favorite episode this season so far. In fact, one of my favorites in all the series. Ezekiel needed this to happen. This episode had it all for me. From great character moments, a sad character death, brutal kills, and classic zombie moments. Even that Jeffrey Dahmer looking Savior felt right. Rip, Shiva. Sums it up for me too. Except I see young Jack Nicholson, not Dahmer. Even sounded a bit like him. Bout time that CGI tiger went though. Carol, still my favorite TWD character.

[Moon Knight]

Sums it up for me too. Except I see young Jack Nicholson, not Dahmer. Even sounded a bit like him. Bout time that CGI tiger went though. Carol, still my favorite TWD character. You didn’t like Shiva?

[MinionZombie]

Damn right, MZ. Most fans don’t realize they only get 6 days to film an episode and with a limited budget. They don’t get 10 mil like Game of Thrones does. That’s why I’m a bit more forgiving for imperfection with the bigger action sequences. There was also some heavy foreshadowing for Ezekiel’s future written in as well. Also, MZ, Westworld was awesome haha. Good comparison there. The actors schedule’s really affected this first half big time. 1) I believe it's 8 days, but even still, it's astonishing. Meanwhile with GoT they've often spoken of filming the major battles (e.g. Hard Home, Battle of the Bastards) over the course of several weeks. The two vehicles in this week's TWD would have been spread over two days max. Plus there's the location shooting factor - you've only got so much daylight to work with, plus the unforgiving heat. Interior actions sequences would be more forgiving on the crew, but still a challenge under their budget and schedule constraints. 2) Yep, I caught that as well! 3) Aye, I enjoyed Westworld ... but it did take me until episode six (of ten) to start really getting into it. It was a real struggle to find my footing during the first half. It made enough sense in the end, but there was a lot of trust involved in keeping people along for the long ride until the reveal at the end. And, of course, circling back to budget - Westworld was also getting 10 million per episode as a budget IIRC. Cable channels like AMC (and many others) simply cannot match HBO's budgets, which is one piece of what sets HBO apart from the pack. The issue with the .50 caliber bullets hitting the front of Rick's jeep and it remaining operational long enough to allow Rick to catch up with the truck could have easily been given a dose of believability by making his jeep have some armor plating: a thick steel plate positioned at the front of the jeep, for example. Yeah, that would have sorted it out nicely - considering it's a .50 cal, as well, it could have perhaps slowly the bullet or caused fragments to splinter through the engine bay leading to a slow death for the engine with just enough time for Indiana Jones jump. Although, where did the jeep come from? Was it a Saviour vehicle? Bout time that CGI tiger went though. Carol, still my favorite TWD character. Awww ... I really liked Shiva. - Although it was absolutely the right time for her to go narratively speaking. Carol - aye - the lady rocks! And McBride's performance has been stellar since season one.