TWD 6x12 "Not Tomorrow Yet" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 6x12 "Not Tomorrow Yet" specifically inside this thread. If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know). Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all. Enjoy! Directed by: Greg Nicotero Written by: Seth Hoffman “Rick and the group realize the only way to maintain the peace of Alexandria is to fight a new enemy. This time, though, our group might be outmatched.”

[facestabber]

Jesus, that was violent. Add Glen Tara and Gabriel losing their innocence. Vengeance is coming and it won't be pretty.

[Moon Knight]

That was a very intense second half! I feared for Rosita's life but she's ok! Nothing to worry about. Gabriel had my favorite moment of the episode for sure. I love how almost everybody had something going on in this episode. Glenn looking into a dark and violent future was very haunting to me. The look on his face was priceless. From the cold open to the final moments, I loved everything about this one. If I had to complain about something it's that I can do without another hostage situation but I kind of have a feeling where it's heading so it's all good. Also, Heath and Tara going out on their own for a couple weeks after all that? Doesn't look good.

[facestabber]

The show is doing one hell of a job making the populace concerned over many characters. Everyone knows that Negans intro is going to be brutal and fatal. Carol beginning a full circle turn to pre apoc feelings. Glenn now killing the living. At this point I will admit the Lucille scene has really become a wild guessing game. So many ways to go with it. As we now see Rick's rush to attack without a proper scouting is gonna cost them. Granted the people voted for this attack so they all have a burden. But stoking the hornets nest without knowing the strength of the enemy is bad mojo. Curious what you all think regarding the armory. Did our team have time to clear it out? If they havent yet, do you believe its a good decision even with Maggie and Carol hostage? Sound off. Hope Minion is ok. Getting late with no response.

[MinionZombie]

Hope Minion is ok. Getting late with no response. Don't worry facestabber, I'm still kickin'. ... WOOOOOOOO! Fantastic episode, so it was! Another crackin' job from Nicotero - and crammed full with foreboding and dark themes. Great to see Carol swing back around again - and now to see the toll of all she's had to do pressing down on her in a big, bad way. I dug the mother/protector push/pull she had going on, especially in that scene with Maggie who's now got a kid on the way to think about, she can't just go getting herself stuck in to the fight - will she be able? Awesome shoot out, of course - but the loss of innocence in this episode was strong. Poor old Glenn - another piece of him has been stripped away - his first human kill(s). Those gnarly photos by the bed of that 2nd dude ... *shudders* ... proper grim! The Ricktatorship is about to get a taste of the consequences of their hubris ... as has been said, it's a guessing game now - there's multiple candidates for the big adios. It's coming, for someone ... or perhaps even a couple? Geez ... the tension. Various stories are either coming full circle, or are concluding in some way, but they all have next chapters dangling in another way - whatever happens it'll be a punch in the gut. The cold open rocked and posed a great juxtaposition, not just for Carol, but for Alexandria vs The Saviours. Nice touch with the cookie on Sam's grave - and nice to see Carol get a little something sweet with Tobin. Carol has been one of the most interesting characters to watch on the show and I really hope she sticks around. Loved it when Rick punched that severed walker head in the nose to make it look like a more mangled Gregory. Indeed, Rick was quite dark in this one - the "kill them all" line echoing The Governor (especially to Tara), that broken hand dude's reaction to Rick - well, his beard's coming back and the hair's getting kind of scraggly again ... dark times ahead. Lots of stuff in this episode. That's blatantly just an outpost though. Gnarly guard dudes, too - I did chuckle at the lip-wiggling of the walker's severed head, I gotta admit. Oooooh, I can hardly wait for next week! ... TWD 6x12 Memes: http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2016/...king-dead.html

[JDP]

Glenn staring at those pictures with people with smashed heads/faces... an omen, maybe? This attack was too rushed, not enough planning. They should have brought in more people to surround The Saviors' base and make sure that: 1- There were none of them patrolling the outside area 2- None of them could get out through some back door or any other exit Did I see this correctly?: Carol stabbed a zombie in the neck and it went down dead???

[Moon Knight]

Glenn staring at those pictures with people with smashed heads/faces... an omen, maybe? This attack was too rushed, not enough planning. They should have brought in more people to surround The Saviors' base and make sure that: 1- There were none of them patrolling the outside area 2- None of them could get out through some back door or any other exit Did I see this correctly?: Carol stabbed a zombie in the neck and it went down dead??? I agree. First mistake was Rick letting Maggie come along in the first place. The biggest issue is no one really has an answer on how many Saviors the group is dealing with; Jesus estimates around 20 and Andy doesn't have a clue. Too much of the unknown to not have many Alexandrians surrounding the area on lookout. As far as Carol goes, her Walker kills are usually less finesse than everyone else.

[facestabber]

I have no problem having Maggie along. She is talented and done well in firefights. Now now relax folks, yes I am a loyal Maggie lover but that's honestly not why I want her screen time here. The problem lies in Carol and Maggie reverting to their feminine DNA of jabber jawing when they should have been concealed and looking through rifle scopes. Now I must say I really loved their initial movements in the building. They moved efficiently and covered each other 6. I love tactics. Show did a good job here showing us that our group is a badass group of killers. Talking dead reminded me of Rosita and Abe's military back ground. Glad to see it translate. No it wasn't perfect movement and they fucked up compared to real world operators but for the most part it was absolutely acceptable for this show. Kudos. Minion sorry but I think Carols time is closing on the show.

[Neil]

Very very good episode IMHO. And the music was great too! What previous episode was it which had great moody beating synth music in it... it reminded me of that one! Great synthy stuff!

[MinionZombie]

It's the pride before the fall for the Ricktatorship. They've got in trouble beforehand, but have been able to use their wits and bravado and just barge on through. Look at the whole Terminus situation - they were in a weakened state post-prison, and find themselves in a sticky situation - but then they found themselves together again and, with a bit of luck and a bit of good timing, they were able to improvise and just bash their way out of it. With Gareth they played a trick and just massacred them. Likewise with The Claimers - sheer brutality, improvisation, and speed took those bastards out in the end. Also - just think about where they're at right now. A couple of months prior they took a big hit - but they slaughtered an army of the dead and took out The Wolves - so you can see where the arrogance is coming from. They think they're the alpha dogs, the bad mofos on the block, but I reckon they're gonna get a rude awakening. I like the church scene where Aaron took Rick's side, and Rick laid down some pragmatic 'deal with it' snap to Morgan. Some people you just can't negotiate with, some people are too far gone.

[facestabber]

It's the pride before the fall for the Ricktatorship. They've got in trouble beforehand, but have been able to use their wits and bravado and just barge on through. Look at the whole Terminus situation - they were in a weakened state post-prison, and find themselves in a sticky situation - but then they found themselves together again and, with a bit of luck and a bit of good timing, they were able to improvise and just bash their way out of it. With Gareth they played a trick and just massacred them. Likewise with The Claimers - sheer brutality, improvisation, and speed took those bastards out in the end. Also - just think about where they're at right now. A couple of months prior they took a big hit - but they slaughtered an army of the dead and took out The Wolves - so you can see where the arrogance is coming from. They think they're the alpha dogs, the bad mofos on the block, but I reckon they're gonna get a rude awakening. I like the church scene where Aaron took Rick's side, and Rick laid down some pragmatic 'deal with it' snap to Morgan. Some people you just can't negotiate with, some people are too far gone. Their egos have to be high after the ass kickings they have handed out. But if it is in fact arrogance they themselves acknowledged it would cost them. They are well aware this isn't a video game and casualties are likely. Ethically I see no issue with this preemptive strike. Of all the characters on the show I trust Daryl when it comes to judging a mans character. He met Negans gang face to face and knew exactly what they are. It was rather blatant. Sasha and Abraham saw the same thing. At the end of the dead I feel damn lucky to have this show even with a pending finale that will probably piss me off.

[DayoftheZ]

Not going to lie, I really disliked this part of the comic series so have dreaded getting to this point. I read the entire Negan arc and gave up soon after. So far I have really, really enjoyed the TV version of the story, maybe because the characters are more evolved than on paper. I hope Negan plays out on the screen as well as the governor did.

[Moon Knight]

Not going to lie, I really disliked this part of the comic series so have dreaded getting to this point. I read the entire Negan arc and gave up soon after. So far I have really, really enjoyed the TV version of the story, maybe because the characters are more evolved than on paper. I hope Negan plays out on the screen as well as the governor did. Yep. I stick to reading the comics but it was the events that happened after Negan that really turned me off. I believe to me is everyone is just more likeable on the show; especially Rick. The Governor is a typical generic scumbag on paper but the David Morrissey version was leaps and bounds better; Jon Bernthal as Shane being the BEST example. I'm pretty hyped for what Negan will bring to the table. His comic character however IS amazing so this one is gonna be hard to top. Let's see.

[MinionZombie]

Yep. I stick to reading the comics but it was the events that happened after Negan that really turned me off. I believe to me is everyone is just more likeable on the show; especially Rick. The Governor is a typical generic scumbag on paper but the David Morrissey version was leaps and bounds better; Jon Bernthal as Shane being the BEST example. I'm pretty hyped for what Negan will bring to the table. His comic character however IS amazing so this one is gonna be hard to top. Let's see. I'd agree that it's easier to like and invest in the TV show characters as opposed to the comic characters. It's not always the case, and there are various comics characters I really root for, but I think pictures on paper carry far more ambivalence - whereas in the show they're living human beings, there's a team of writers, the actors work their characters hard, and so it's a large team effort to determine how the show works and the characters slot into that. With the comic it's a slightly more singular vision up against a continual deadline (with various other projects encroaching on Kirkman's time), so as such it can't be quite as deep. Morrissey's Governor was definitely more rounded. He was an outright villain in the comics, but in the show he was much more complex - at times you actually felt sorry for him (e.g. 4x06 as he was stumbling about as Forever Alone Governor, and as he got to know Tara et al). Negan wise ... it'll be interesting to see what they do. I think Morgan will fit the role well, but how will they write him? He's constantly effing and jeffing in the comics and you can't get away with that on American telly unless it's a channel like HBO. Technically you could swear as much as you like on AMC, but with advertisers they're still beholden to the angry letter mob and the threat of losing advertisers (which is a damn shame - we don't really have that kind of blue rinse tyranny in the UK any more). Agreed on Shane as well - the added screentime, and Bernthal's work in the role, really made him a fascinating character. I understand Kirkman needing an arc for the first six issues in case that was all he got, so it was a nice second chance at that story arc with the show. The events of 2x12 were hugely satisfying to watch unfold and carried so much more weight. There's a few things coming up that I do wonder how they'll adapt them (or if they'll adapt them), but I think they've done a good job over-the-piece. For instance, in the comics everyone's shagging everyone else at the drop of a hat, but in the show they've really pulled way back on that aspect and I think it works better that way. Just regarding where the comics are at lately:   Perhaps the issue some have with where the comics are now, is rooted in it losing a clear narrative that is focused on a relatively small group of core characters. The reader's connection is loosened, or is perhaps even lost ... I follow the trade paperbacks, so I'm the equivalent of six to eight issues behind the monthly readers, and I've not especially connected with The Whisperers as a story. I'll absolutely keep reading the trade paperbacks, but I can see some of why some folks petered out on it. I do think the TV show version - being live action - has many more tricks and abilities to keep people hooked and ground the story with a second chance at every plot development and character. Just look at how vastly different (and improved) Carol is compared to her comic book counterpart! Interesting times ahead...

[Moon Knight]

I agree pretty much with your post MZ. After watching this episode again, I kind of have a bad feeling for Heath and Tara. One of them isn't coming back or perhaps neither of them are. I can see both characters killed off soon. The Alexandrians killed a shit load of Saviors; there has to be some sort of repercussions. Just knowing the Saviors are out there why would the group let two members go off on their own? Did they really think they already killed them off including Negan? Boy are they in for a rude awaking.