TWD 8x12 "The Key" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x12 "The Key" specifically inside this thread. If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know). Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all. Enjoy! Directed by: Greg Nicotero Written by: Corey Reed & Channing Powell Hilltop's leadership faces a difficult dilemma after the arrival of unexpected visitors; Rick comes face to face with an adversary.

[Moon Knight]

I expect another build up episdode. The attack will be next episode.

[MinionZombie]

Right in that regard - the attack will likely be next episode - but fortunately this episode wasn't without its own set pieces and intrigue and machinations. Good to see more of the Simon/Negan stuff going on - Simon feeling out Dwight in his sly workings to try and take over The Sanctuary, all good stuff to see. The Negan/Rick stuff was good too, and I was relieved that they at least provided good enough reasons for Rick to not get Negan this time around, and swingin' a flaming Lucille was pretty badass. What do you reckon to these 'knowledge' people? They weren't too irritating, which was good, although they are curious - but the knowledge she hands over will be, I think, stuff we'll see come to fruition after the time jump (milling grain and so on).

[JDP]

Right in that regard - the attack will likely be next episode - but fortunately this episode wasn't without its own set pieces and intrigue and machinations. Good to see more of the Simon/Negan stuff going on - Simon feeling out Dwight in his sly workings to try and take over The Sanctuary, all good stuff to see. The Negan/Rick stuff was good too, and I was relieved that they at least provided good enough reasons for Rick to not get Negan this time around, and swingin' a flaming Lucille was pretty badass. What do you reckon to these 'knowledge' people? They weren't too irritating, which was good, although they are curious - but the knowledge she hands over will be, I think, stuff we'll see come to fruition after the time jump (milling grain and so on). I thought the "give us something in exchange for knowledge" thingy was nonsense. What prevents anyone in this world from just raiding a library (and there should be a bunch of them laying around undisturbed, since most survivors will not be attracted to places where there are no essential supplies) and getting all that same knowledge for free? Also, notice that Negan had no idea of what Simon did at the Dump. Like I said in the comments for that episode, leaving Jadis alive was a big mistake for someone as devious as Simon to make. It was her who informed Rick that the Saviors had come and wiped them out. Rick would not have known what happened otherwise. Plus as it was easy to suspect, Jadis herself got out, so Negan would find out sooner or later.

[Moon Knight]

The barter for knowledge seemed silly at first, but the book that was handed to Maggie definitely is a key to Alexandria’s future. I loved it. The character of Georgie was a breath of fresh air too. I like her already. We still don’t know if Negan actually believed Simon. Sure he had his suspicions and I believe deep down inside he knew, but hearing Rick flat out confirm his suspicions and the fact it clearly messed with what Negan was saying to Rick caused Negan’s frustration. Between Rick and Daryl’s little conversion, Michonne being the Michonne I love, and the return of Jadis at the end, I really liked this episode. Rick and Negan interacting was icing on the cake.

[MinionZombie]

Regarding Simon/Negan/Heapsters - perhaps an element of squiffy writing from different writers/writing teams in regards to clarity of whether Negan knew or only suspected. At the very least Negan suspected something was up with Simon. As I said before in the thread for that episode, that scene was - quite deliberately - dripping with subtext. I believe that Negan suspected that Simon probably went and did something a bit naughty, but maybe didn't want to believe it (or was perhaps too arrogant to consciously believe it in the moment). The trade for knowledge - iffy at first, but the trading of that book with very useful, practical information was great. The sort of info that modern people wouldn't know, but would need to know in a zombie apocalypse in order to live for a long time and not just survive, you know? Jadis capturing Negan was a delicious reveal. Still pretty stoked with that flaming Lucille fight, unexpectedly awesome. Interesting stuff with Maggie/Michonne/Enid there. The 'Carl way' won out in the end, so Enid's riding out her grief at the moment with misplaced anger and such. I hope Enid sticks around, I dig her character. It's a bummer that we won't get to see a Carl/Enid relationship blossom (in the comics we get to see Carl get into a relationship), but I'm looking forward to seeing more from Enid as the show continues. I particular did her and Maggie as a team.

[Moon Knight]

I loved how Michonne shot down Enid’s shit haha but she did have a point when she later conversed with Michonne. She’s one that did some outrageous stuff just to survive prior to Alexandria. So it’s not out of character at all for her behavior when compared to Tara for example. The flaming Lucille was a great gag and the way Negan was more and more agitated the longer Rick held Lucile was fantastic. I also wanna highlight how amazing everything was between Simon and Dwight. Wonderfully portrayed by both actors. It’s all about the subtleties.

[MinionZombie]

I also wanna highlight how amazing everything was between Simon and Dwight. Wonderfully portrayed by both actors. It’s all about the subtleties. Agreed. Probably the juiciest stuff in this episode. Very satisfying. I also dug the scene between Daryl and Rick where Daryl, in an unusually talkative mood, apologised (well, as best he can) for trying to end the war quicker with his garbage truck stunt. Good to see a bit of humility for a dumb decision. Oh, and Judith being handed back to Rick was so cute - they've found a cracking little child actor in her (I'm assuming they're twins, or even triplets, as that's the usual for these things).

[shootemindehead]

Another good one there. But, jaysis that auld Negan fella has the luck if the divil. He should be dead a million times by now. Good to see a group of survivors that aren't all guns and arseholes too. Have to say, I'm really enjoying the back end of this series. After a faulty start, it's really picked up. I'm in love with Jadis.

[Moon Knight]

I'm in love with Jadis. Join the club.

[MinionZombie]

Interesting how Jadis is getting a lot of good vibes from viewers now that she's free of those Heapster hosers. In another thread we're talking about gimmicks and desperation (RE: the 'Morgan going to FTWD' thing), and it reminded me of another example of a 'desperate gimmick' - the "nude walker" they were blabbering on about recently was in this episode. Did you notice? Nope, me neither. Talking Dead actually had to point it out (with a few teases mentioned in the 'coming up' bits) - all it was was a background walker, and you can't even tell what it used to be (male? female?). I thought it was kinda pointless anyway, especially as they said it was going to be so rotted up, but man, the way it was getting talked about was so silly - and all for a blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot of a background walker? Get tae fuck. Anyway, that laughable bit of nonsense aside, it was a pretty darn groovy episode. The sexual politics were a little bit simplistic (men = destructive war machines, women = patient builders) and, indeed, I'd like to see some of that mixed up (i.e. women are as capable as men of being destructive monsters and men are as capable as women of being positive-thinking creators), but fortunately they didn't hammer you over the head with it too much in the episode (that more came out on Talking Dead) - I was just enjoying good characters having good stuff to chew over in good scenes: that's all anyone's really after in the end.

[Moon Knight]

To be fair, I didn’t like the Scavengers as a whole, but I always liked Jadis. She just fascinated me. I saw the naked walker during the first viewing. It wasn’t really a blink and you missed it. It was the only walker on screen. When Dwight was about to torch Negan’s car it could be seen drawing closer and closer. But yeah, it was pretty stupid to even hype this up haha.

[beat_truck]

I only noticed the "naked" walker because it was kind of alone out in the open, not because it looked like anything special. I didn't think anything of it until Talking Dead pointed it out. I'm glad to see that this half of the season has improved. A lot of he first half was pretty rough to watch, IMO.

[MinionZombie]

Well, okay, sure you can see it - but it's just a walker in the background - rotty and brown like many other walkers. Come to think of it, though, I was distracted by the fire - much like a walker, ha! Such a big stink made out of a 'nude' walker? Silly. Oh! Another silly thing that just crawled out of the memory banks - they were going on about 'dropping an F-bomb or two' in this season as well, remember that? Oooooh, the F-word! Well, AMC? Get on with it, then. We've been dropping it on prime time telly here in the UK for years. Catch up, America.

[Neil]

Enjoyable episode... BUT, I would say the pantomime fights are still doing my head in. ie: Rick just throwing caution to the wind and running out of ammunition when approaching the car. And then needlessly turning his back to bash through the "EATERS" door. ie: Imagine if Negan has simply come up behind him with the iron bar he'd found. Just a tad daft/unrealitic for me.