Keeping The Faith

[ItsJustaScratch]

I thought I would start this thread with a view to discuss GAR's current direction constructively; looking back on his last two installments in particular, to see if/why his deviation with the genre is at all nescessary. I for one, am slightly dismayed by the way GAR has been received of late. I'm sure he could of made another Dawn had he wanted to, that involved another group of survivors holed up in another location; say an airport or train station for the duration of the film, however I think he saw the need for change when it was most relevant and adjusted accordingly.Sure, the remake of Dawn incorporates some of the old fun and adrenaline from the original,but is, on the surface, a bit of a 2nd hand,souless computer game; is that what we want? All good bands for instance, will automatically feel the need to rethink the design of their music, because it goes against the grain to do what the fans want all the time,which takes guts and integrity. Loyal fans will generally except that things need to move on, even though the music is missing some elements of it's previous body, they will give the band the backing it needs to expand...George it seems doesn't have this support.It's like Nirvana fans standing with their arms crossed shouting 'play Teen Spirit'. Us GAR fans are a sensitive bunch, and I'm Sure there's a lot of room for give and take; I would like to see him humble himself,and maybe co-produce a film with a younger filmaker like Simon Pegg, who understands GAR and where he needs to go, for at the moment there is a divide between fans that needs to be closed. LAND: Land is a definate grower, many people turn their nose up at this film, mostly because of it's hammy 80-90's (escape from New York) feel; but isn't that all part of the GAR charm? I also believe that most people were lead by the nose by initial reviews It's unfortunate that some traditional GAR elements are missing, but there are also many new ones added.This movie is the first 'mainly' exterior based film in the series,has the first series link (Savino's Biker zombie from Dawn cameo) and the first natural death to zombie transition (old guys suicide), along with subtleties woven into the film, that can take a couple of views to grasp.Take Riley,the main protagonist;he has a connection with Big Boss,that really holds the key-answer to the story line. At the start of the film, we see Riley observing Big Bosses habits and understands that there is a common need for them to exist in their own right, and realises they are slowly becoming the lesser of two evils in the current predicament and can potentually be used as a helpful tool.This is a risky experiment that pays-off in the end, unlike that of 'Dr Frankensteins' in Day Of The Dead. In the final scene, we see Riley and the boss acknowledge each other, and there is almost a sense of harmony.Again, Riley holds fire, because he knows there is a chance they can co-exist separatley.Big Boss then steers them away from confrontation, to the safety of Fiddlers Green. With a sly wink at peace in the middle-east from GAR, this for me, is the most positive conclusion in the franchise (so far). My main gripe is that this film was plot over character orientated, and also that the heroes were never really faced with impossible odd's after gaining control of the Dead Reckoning.I'm opening myself up to ridicule here, but after 4 views it has become my favourite (alongside Dawn). I only wish they'd release an extended edition with more character interaction between all groups and a bit of extra combat between the heroes & zombies thrown in. Diary: Not really my cup of tea. I feel it could have been executed in a better way, but also think it's a needed (brief) side-step to the series. Bring on ...Of The Dead I say! Thoughts?....

[Andy]

There are 2 main gripes with land, neither of which you have addressed.. 1. The entire plot does not work. at all. 2. Big Daddy.

[Trin]

I think you've hit on some important topics, Scratch, and you present a well thought out post. As to GAR deviating and an artist's need to deviate and expand/grow - I cannot entirely agree. I think of the GAR zombie universe as a horror genre all its own. Like any genre as a fan you expect certain themes and plot structures to remain intact. To do otherwise will lose the fans. It would be like a Star Trek or Dr. Who episode attempting to break the pattern. Fans come back to the genre for consistency. We like to see the same story told over and over again. I liked the whole atmosphere of Land and although it was a departure from the previous movies in that it was held in large parts outside the protected area, I felt it still had the feel of old - a group of survivors isolated and confined in a prison of their own making. I did enjoy the interplay between Riley and Big Daddy. I found it disturbing that the zombies were growing (*purposefully avoids use of term "evolving"*) past the need/desire to feed on human flesh. The message of peace is definitely evident in the film. The deviations you've mentioned are mostly fine with Land. I'd add the fireworks to the equation. I thought it was a fresh revelation of zombie behavior without substantively breaking the pattern. Like Andy says I think you've missed the main crux of the problem. The plot just doesn't work for me. It was silly on too many levels. I couldn't believe in any of the actions/motivations of the characters so it was impossible for me to put myself in their shoes and go along for the ride. The whole movie needed a big re-think in my opinion.

[ItsJustaScratch]

Please explain Andy? Big Boss is just another Bub/Bob, who's learn't more from being in the outside world, instead of one toy at a time. I do however wish that this "evolution" goes no further. We don't want them all running around like Forrest Gump and climbing ceiling grids. What exactly is wrong with the plot? They can't just keep on locking themselves up everywhere and then trying to extract like in the first three. I see your point there Trin, for some reason the words Lucas and George came into my head as I was reading your post. As for individual actions/motivations, the genre is choc full of bad moves, especially where flyboys are concerned. I can't see why everyones motivation wouldn't revolve around taking down Fiddlers, when they're having to risk their lives to scavenge and supply for the rich and wealthy. Another nice point about this film is that it's the first in the series to push the story to the point of seeing the grand scheme of things. In the first three, we didn't really know about any other survivors, let alone communes, towns and cities. We were all pretty blind-folded in our little safe houses before that. Scope is what the genre needed, and scope is what Land Of The Dead gave. I hear that fans detested the original Day Of The Dead upon it's release; I hope this ones a slow burner too.

[blind2d]

I'm behind you on this one 100%, Scratch! Plus I thought Land had some great characters! ...or at least Charlie...

[MoonSylver]

I hear that fans detested the original Day Of The Dead upon it's release; I hope this ones a slow burner too. I've been thinking along the same lines for awhile now. Time will tell. I enjoyed Land & Diary both thoroughly. I realized that both are flawed films, & maybe not as good as the originals, but that didn't keep me from liking them just the same.

[clanglee]

Please read the stick thread "Why people Hate Land of the Dead" . . . . enjoy. Apparently no longer sticky. .ah well. .here ya go http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...ople+hate+land

[Andy]

Please explain Andy? Big Boss is just another Bub/Bob, who's learn't more from being in the outside world, instead of one toy at a time. I do however wish that this "evolution" goes no further. We don't want them all running around like Forrest Gump and climbing ceiling grids. What exactly is wrong with the plot? They can't just keep on locking themselves up everywhere and then trying to extract like in the first three. Zombies dont evolve. they dont learn, they dont grow they dont mature.. they kill, they eat, they rot and that is all they do. I Dont like bub for the same reasons but at least you could explain that away by saying he is copying dr logan and acting from vague memories of his existance, which we have seen countless other zombies do.. but big daddy is unbeleivable.. we are expected to swallow that a single zombie has evolved to the point where it can lead others by itself out in the wild? what is it? the fucking buddha of zombies? no way. Also the plot, it dosnt make sense, putting aside the fact that these people have had time and resources to build a huge enclosed camp while under constant attack, night and day, they have erected this camp, kaufmann has somehow become leader of it and instated a monetry system.. why? everything is there for the taking, why bring money back? thats creating a rich/poor divide again.. and why would you follow it? you could leave the city, go to a bank in a neighbouring city and become a instant millionaire, or better yet you could go to a store and get something that matters, like they do at the start of the movie. Speaking of money (money is my huge problem with this film).. what is the mexican guy going to do with that money when kaufmann has paid him? congratulate himself and roll around in it? there is nothing for him to spend it on.. he cant go back to the city with it becuase he would be arrested and killed on sight, out in the wild, whats he going to do? pay zombies to dance for him? it dosnt work lol it just dosnt work. i hate land with a passion, i really do, i was so psyched up for it i couldnt wait to go see it, i was first in line at the cinema, and what i saw... wasnt even a disappointment, it was a mental scar that i now have to carry for the rest of my life.

[Skippy911sc]

I think both movie had promise! I thought a lot of scenes were added to simply display something visually instead of add to the story. If a smaller budget and more hands on approach had been taken I think the movies would have had a different feel entirely. That sense of dread and despair were not in these films...and the whole Big Daddy thing...that is GARs Jar Jar and he must live with it. I just had a brilliant idea, someone needs to re-cut the movie taken Big Daddy out. I like the older films and I like Dawn '04 (for what it is), however the 2 latest films are not my cup-o-tea. After watching the trailer for ...the dead I am feeling a little let down. I can't help but feel like the stories are just crap! The films must be lead by the story and the visuals need to follow. For that reason I am looking forward to WWZ, I enjoyed the book and feel they have a lot to work with. Thats not to say they won't totally hollywood this one up.

[AcesandEights]

Please read the stick thread "Why people Hate Land of the Dead" . . . . And don't forget to read between the lines (the master didn't feed them what they wanted and they turned on him ). Land was fine, as far as I'm concerned*, but Diary was wretched. I'm quite sincere when I air my opinion that the film was a poor outing for anyone who has any experience above, say, film school. I appreciate George trying something new (for him, anyway), but it was a limp story, poorly implemented and not very well thought out/implemented. Welcome, by the way. *= That's not to say that Land wasn't weak in the areas of acting in some respects, plot/script (not personal or character-driven enough) and--as a result of the aforementioned issues--not scary enough.

[blind2d]

Remember Andy, Cholo was in a zombie world. Insanity hits you hard, man. It's very difficult to keep, and he probably figured he could take Dead Reckoning out into another place somewhere similar to Fiddler's Green and become the the new king there. Anyway, yeh, his mind was gone at the start of this film, and just kept getting worse. That's my theory, anyway. - 2D

[sandrock74]

It's unfortunate that some traditional GAR elements are missing, but there are also many new ones added.This movie is the first 'mainly' exterior based film in the series,has the first series link (Savino's Biker zombie from Dawn cameo) and the first natural death to zombie transition (old guys suicide), along with subtleties woven into the film, that can take a couple of views to grasp.Take Riley,the main protagonist;he has a connection with Big Boss,that really holds the key-answer to the story line. At the start of the film, we see Riley observing Big Bosses habits and understands that there is a common need for them to exist in their own right, and realises they are slowly becoming the lesser of two evils in the current predicament and can potentually be used as a helpful tool.This is a risky experiment that pays-off in the end, unlike that of 'Dr Frankensteins' in Day Of The Dead. In the final scene, we see Riley and the boss acknowledge each other, and there is almost a sense of harmony.Again, Riley holds fire, because he knows there is a chance they can co-exist separatley.Big Boss then steers them away from confrontation, to the safety of Fiddlers Green. Thoughts?.... I would just like to point out that someone who dies of hanging has not died a "natural death".

[ItsJustaScratch]

I would just like to point out that someone who dies of hanging has not died a "natural death". Easy! You know signs of higher intelligence are frowned upon in these parts. Zombies dont evolve. they dont learn, they dont grow they dont mature.. they kill, they eat, they rot and that is all they do. I Dont like bub for the same reasons but at least you could explain that away by saying he is copying dr logan and acting from vague memories of his existance, which we have seen countless other zombies do.. but big daddy is unbeleivable.. we are expected to swallow that a single zombie has evolved to the point where it can lead others by itself out in the wild? what is it? the fucking buddha of zombies? no way. Also the plot, it dosnt make sense, putting aside the fact that these people have had time and resources to build a huge enclosed camp while under constant attack, night and day, they have erected this camp, kaufmann has somehow become leader of it and instated a monetry system.. why? everything is there for the taking, why bring money back? thats creating a rich/poor divide again.. and why would you follow it? you could leave the city, go to a bank in a neighbouring city and become a instant millionaire, or better yet you could go to a store and get something that matters, like they do at the start of the movie. Speaking of money (money is my huge problem with this film).. what is the mexican guy going to do with that money when kaufmann has paid him? congratulate himself and roll around in it? there is nothing for him to spend it on.. he cant go back to the city with it becuase he would be arrested and killed on sight, out in the wild, whats he going to do? pay zombies to dance for him? it dosnt work lol it just dosnt work. i hate land with a passion, i really do, i was so psyched up for it i couldnt wait to go see it, i was first in line at the cinema, and what i saw... wasnt even a disappointment, it was a mental scar that i now have to carry for the rest of my life. There's alot of pain in there mate, but bare with me.... As you know Big Boss is just an extention of Bob, that's trying to resume normal life,as was the plan in 'Day'. Ultimately zombies are a shadow of ourformer selves; ghosts not knowing they're dead, doomed to repeat the same life patterns, like a recording burnt into the matter of time.Like humans, they will have rare abnormalities and also the odd genious here and there, so for me, not including this minority would almost be 'against the rules'. Riley Denbo, is my favourite protagonist of the series. He is the first male lead that I can really relate to, and the only character who really has other peoples best interest at heart,without being melo-dramatic about it; a renowned leader, who is cynical, yet optimistic. He also has a certain cheesy, iconic look about him that I dig (in a straight way)...... He's also the only character I can really relate to, or want to aspire to (with the exception of Ken). We have too many selfish,Big Brother style non-entities in horror films these days, and when they ALL tend to die at the end, we don't give a shit. I just love the way GAR let's you see Riley's vision - his dim-witted, but loyal side-kick will quizzically blurt out what he's seeing, and Riley will say a couple of cynical lines that ring true, and also reveal his intentions. As for Cholo, i've met my fair share of greedy, egotistical 'social climbers' like him in my time. Believe me, they're out there. He's lived his life being money orientated, and obviously thinks that it's the answer to everything. Nobodyknows whether there are other towns/cities like Fiddlers, where money is still important. Like all poor area's they're in a catch 22. There is illness spreading throughout the commune (Kaughmans son) that needs to be treated,i.e they need money and medical care to survive, but they are well protected where they are. I believe the term 'between a rock & a hard place' is what I'm getting to. What surprises me is that Land is quite a critical and commercial success grossing the second largest amount of money after Dawn. For a change, it was the critics who appreciated these clever satirical subtleties instead of the fans. Again, I still think (some) fan's are afraid to admit to themselves that they actually like it, but what it comes down to is; you like what you like,and you can't lie to yourself.I think eventually it with stand in line where it rightly belongs. For that reason I am looking forward to WWZ, I enjoyed the book and feel they have a lot to work with. Thats not to say they won't totally hollywood this one up. Info on the adaption from Wikipidia: A film adaptation is in development, following a bidding war between Brad Pitt and Leonardo Di Caprio's production companies, with the rights being obtained by Brad Pitt's Plan B Entertainment and the screenplay being written by Babylon 5 and Rising Stars creator J. Michael Straczynski.[20] In an interview Straczynski said it was a challenge to create a main character out of a book that reads as a UN Report on the zombie wars, but he says his solution was create the guy who wrote that report and follow his process.[21] Marc Forster signed on to direct on November 13, 2008. The director described the film as reminiscent of 1970s conspiracy thrillers like All the President's Men.[22] Straczynski, however, says the movie is more like The Bourne Identity and commented that the film will have a large international scope while keeping the film as political as the book was. Straczynski also said that they hope to begin production by the start of 2009. [23] When asked if he would have anything to do with the movie, Brooks stated that he had "zero control", but admitted that he would love to see Brad Pitt have a role in the movie[1] and thought Straczynski was a great choice to write the script.[24][25] In an interview with Fangoria, Brooks said, "I can’t give it away, but Straczynski found a way to tie it all together. The last draft I read was amazing."[26] All I can say to that is (whelp!...)...

[bassman]

I've been through this kind of conversation too many times just to give my opinions all over again, but I just have to ask.....Big Boss?

[MinionZombie]

I've been through this kind of conversation too many times just to give my opinions all over again, but I just have to ask.....Big Boss? And who is "Bob"? Clearly you're meaning Big Daddy and Bub.