TWD 8x16 "Wrath" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x16 "Wrath" specifically inside this thread. If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know). Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all. Enjoy! Directed by: Greg Nicotero Written by: Scott M. Gimple & Angela Kang & Matthew Negrete The communities join forces in the last stand against the Saviors as all-out war unfolds. Well here we are, folks - the season 8 finale!

[Moon Knight]

Death predictions Arat Regina Scott Kal Tara- This long Dwight/Daryl/Tara story has to have some big ramifications and it includes Tara asking Daryl to forgive Dwight before she dies. Eugene- I do believe Eugene will make faulty ammo. He'll redeem himself this way but he's done too much harm to be taken back in as is. He'll take a bullet for someone. Of course knowing this show Tara and Eugene will both live but the above four are surely done imo. I think Laura is safe.

[MinionZombie]

The Negan/Rick fight was too short. I enjoyed it, but it felt a bit anti-climactic ... as did the final confrontation. We've had AOW throughout Season 8, but you kinda need one last bangtastic climax. At least they had enough time to work on some of the thematic stuff quite well, setting a few things up for the future and such. Moon etc were right regarding Eugene's bullet plan - he's managed to salvage himself through that action (and the scene of all the guns blowing up was pretty sweet). Glad to see Henry being a normal kid in this world having got vengeance out of his system (interestingly, the actor is the younger brother of Madison Lintz - Sophia). This felt like an episode that really needed to be 63 minutes (i.e. a 90 minute slot), but obviously they didn't have time for that because of this FTWD crossover thing ... so once again Fear gets in the way. I wonder if some stuff got cut as preview images suggested a few things we didn't really get to see (e.g. Jesus fighting a Saviour hand-to-hand). Oceanside were kinda pointless over all - sling a few molotovs and that's your lot. We spent a fair bit of time with them and all for just that (plus some handy guns)? Hmmm... Happy to see Jadis or "Anne", as we learn, being invited to join Rick and the gang, as well as Sanctuary getting some new windows - people working together. Good to see Laura still alive. I dig her character and I think she could be a strong supporting player in the future. So, thematically I'm happy, but it did feel a bit underwhelming in terms of scale - although the promise of a massive herd of walkers does get me excited. Comics Spoiler:   Might that herd include the Whisperers? If so, I hope the show does a better job at them than the comics did. I struggled with them as an enemy force a bit, particular the 'Thunderdome' esque naming system and weird community rules and all that cobblers.

[Moon Knight]

I agree too short but I was satisfied. Just glad this story is finally over. Some good character stuff in there from Rick and Maggie. Was that a civil war tease? Doubt it but I liked that they added that in there. I pretty much agree with everything MZ said.

[MinionZombie]

There was mention of Gregory being left behind at Hilltop - I really hope we get to see the Maggie/Gregory plotline next season (even with the time jump we're assuming will happen - i.e. the talk of "biding our time"). I was hoping it'd happen this season, but considering the accelerated timeline of Season 8 (i.e. it takes place over the course of, what, a week?) you couldn't really work that in there. So, like I say, hopefully that plotline comes into Season 9! The Negan/Rick fight was essentially three minutes long here, and while we had them dusting each other up during the season, I still wanted a decent sized mano-a-mano punch-up here, but didn't get enough of it ... however, seeing the softer side of Negan when Rick did his Jedi mind trick on his via Carl's wisdom was pretty sweet. It's good that All Out War is over, and I dearly hope that Angela Kang will use a less restrictive storytelling structure/pace (i.e. enough with this 'hours/days for the characters, weeks/months for the viewer' stuff) to help spruce things up. Nice call back to Season 7 when Dwight went back to his pre-ZA home to find the beer and pretzels (that he left there in Season 7) had been eaten by his lady. I wonder if we'll see them teamed-up again in Season 9? Although Daryl did say that he shouldn't come back ... but there's always a good reason to return! The initial shot of them noticing the mega herd wasn't very good - I had no idea what they were looking at (it was just a lot of trees and brown) except for the contextual dialogue clue - at least the closer shot sold the scale better after the last blood had been spilled in AOW. Was it just me, or was Arat absent from this episode? Regina seemed to be taking her place here. She's this one, btw (so many names, so many faces to keep a track of): Hopefully we'll see more of Laura, Arat, and Regina in Season 9.

[JDP]

Hehehe, the SOBs at AMC pulled a good one, showing clips of Eugene threatening Gabriel with a gun, insinuating he had turned "fully bad". Turns out that Eugene had the last laugh and majorly screwed the Saviors. The scene with Dwight and Daryl seems like something that should probably have not happened, at least not while Rick is still calling the shots for all these communities. If the top a-hole responsible for so many deaths and damage, namely Negan, was allowed to live, obviously his underling, who was in fact cooperating with Rick & company to defeat Negan, gets to live too. So the apparent "execution" of Dwight scene should not have happened. Rick would not have allowed that (of course, it's possible that Daryl did this behind Rick's back, but there's always the danger that Rick would find out.) Another thing: Dwight's goal was for Negan to die, not to just become a prisoner. Even though he can do nothing about this, his goal was not accomplished, so he should not really be this apparently satisfied with this outcome. Negan still lives. Dwight's revenge has not been fulfilled.

[Moon Knight]

Arat is most likely gone. The actress most likely had prior commitments during the filming of season 8. You can tell as she was noticeably absent most of the season and the character of Regina was randomly created out of nowhere. Sucks because her character deserved an on screen death for killing Olivia and cutting Rosita’s pretty face. Didn’t Regina get killed? I’m pretty sure she did.

[Harleydude666]

I tried to see the silver lining but this show is laughable now. There was a time I couldn’t wait for the new season and new episode to start, it was an event at my house. For me there will be no restless anticipation waiting for the new season to start anymore, I’m only sticking with it because I have see where it ends up being I’ve invested 8 years into it. When season 9 comes around it’s gonna be more of a “ho hum” feeling, I may even stick with the Sunday night football game and get around to TWD Monday’s or Tuesday’s. Letting Negan live???? And Maggie with that rediculous dialogue at the end? Who was she supposed to be in that scene, Michael Corleone??? I’m sorry but this was bad as bad can get. There is absolutely no edge left to this show. Our actors must have been giggling their asses off rehearsing that cheesy dialogue thinking our jobs and days are numbered. Lauren Cohan would be smart to hike it off the set onto her next job. We all knew this day was coming and unfortunately it’s here, I give it one more season, two if AMC just wants to beat a dead horse. Anyway it was a great run and some great entertainment value for at least six good years, most shows would kill for that. Glad we had our zombie series, and it was a good one at that

[MinionZombie]

Remember when AMC were going on about dropping the F-bomb on-air at some point this season? Yeah, that didn't happen. Arat is most likely gone. The actress most likely had prior commitments during the filming of season 8. You can tell as she was noticeably absent most of the season and the character of Regina was randomly created out of nowhere. Sucks because her character deserved an on screen death for killing Olivia and cutting Rosita’s pretty face. Didn’t Regina get killed? I’m pretty sure she did. Regina gets wounded (her hand IIRC), but I'm pretty sure she survived. It's the trouble with such a large cast, you can't give everyone big chunks of time, and the supporting actors not getting enough time can't live on that, and if they get a good gig somewhere that represents a better opportunity for them then they're gonna take it. It's a tricky position to be in for both sides of the equation - but yeah, for viewers you want some closure. The character of Heath has been squandered because of this sort of situation ... wasn't there rumour of there being a Heath-related reveal? Guess it was just that - a rumour. Letting Negan live???? And Maggie with that rediculous dialogue at the end? Who was she supposed to be in that scene, Michael Corleone??? It happens in the comics and it leads to some quite interesting story. They actually did a much better job of explaining why Rick let Negan live on the show (in the comics it just jumps ahead and there he is in a cell). Speaking of, I would have liked to have seen a shot of Negan sat on the edge of a cot, slouched and defeated, as the jail door slams shut on him - that would have been perfect to show just before the final shot with Rick and young Carl taking a walk (a lovely little flashback). I thought the scene where Maggie is screaming her lungs out desperately wanting Negan killed was great - super performance from Cohan - and it helps set up some ideological conflict between friends. This is a key theme from this point forth in TWD - trying to shake off 'apocalypse rules' to reclaim an improved version of pre-ZA society.

[Moon Knight]

Heath might as well stay gone at this point; I also don’t want to see him as a Whisperer. I’m so happy they kept Negan around. He’s got some good stuff coming ahead. His best materiel yet. I believe next season we will see TWD’s version of “The Red Wedding” finally. The skipped their chance during the Prison fight but a mass exodus is needed. This is one event they can’t wimp out on.

[MinionZombie]

Heath might as well stay gone at this point; I also don’t want to see him as a Whisperer. I’m so happy they kept Negan around. He’s got some good stuff coming ahead. His best materiel yet. I believe next season we will see TWD’s version of “The Red Wedding” finally. The skipped their chance during the Prison fight but a mass exodus is needed. This is one event they can’t wimp out on. Aye, I think I agree with you about Heath - he was only used a little bit on the show as it was, and mostly in Season 6, and he hasn't been seen for like a season-and-a-half at this point, so it may be best to just let him go unless they dream up some epic story to tell. Yep - Negan is a great character - and watching Talking Dead showed how much fun JDM is. In fact, that was the best episode of Talking Dead in a long time simply because it didn't take itself too seriously and was 'full of bants' as the kids might say. Interesting that Dillahunt auditioned for Negan, too! There's an audition tape I'd like to see. RE: 'Red Wedding for TWD'... COMICS SPOILER & THEORIES:   It was talked about on Talking Dead in regards to Rosita, or they alluded to her death in the comics - the heads on pikes thing - which was quite shocking in the comics. I reckon who will get piked might change, depending on how the stories are going and such - heck, Eugene and Rosita hook up in the comics, although I don't really see that happening on the show to be honest - so we'll see who snuffs it when the time comes. To be frank Rick/Daryl/Carol need to remain safe - we've only got three season one O.G. cast members left on the show and Morgan's jogged on to FearTWD now - and we need at least two of them to make it to the very end, otherwise it'd be disappointing/frustrating. The big challenge will be to make The Whisperers make sense on-screen. The Heapsters were very 'Thunderdomey' and stood out like a sore thumb on the show - and they weren't even in the comics - but at least we got Jadis/Anne out of it, who has turned into a really good character now she's dropped all the 'Thunderdomey' bullshit. The Whisperers, on the other hand, were a bit of a struggle in the comics as even there they felt too over-the-top and silly. It's gonna be a major balancing act to get them right on-screen, but I'm rooting for Kang & Co to pull it off. TWD 8x16 Meme:   http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2018/...x16-memes.html

[Moon Knight]

RE: Comic Spoiler.   I hope it’s Tara and not Rosita of course. But if they want a pregnant woman to be killed than I guess it can’t be Tara sadly. As long as they don’t give the Whisperers bad and contrived dialogue they should be fine. This is one story arc I really hope they don’t follow to a T. Hated how badly it was handled at the end.

[shootemindehead]

So, mullet (bullet?) boy came through in the end. ha ha... That ending was a bit of a damp squib overall though, which is unfortunate.

[Neil]

Finally got around to watching it. An OK episode. Did laugh at them taking out for phoney plan saviours on the road - NOW they can shoot straight!!! ie: All hit in a second flat. Where as every other gun fight they can't hit anything And once again Rick running out of ammunition and running dead on into Negan? Anyway, reasonable episode, just hope the next season improves!

[MinionZombie]

The 'selective accuracy' thing is inherent to the genre, but aye, they do need to employ it better - i.e. better reasons why you wouldn't hit somebody (e.g. gun jams, trying to fire on-the-move, a target that's constantly shifting, objects/people getting in the way, a poorly sighted weapon, nearby distractions etc).