TWD 8x03 "Monsters" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x03 "Monsters" specifically inside this thread. If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know). Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all. Enjoy! Directed by: Greg Nicotero Written by: Matthew Negrete & Channing Powell Conflict with the Saviors leads to unintended consequences for the Hilltop, the Kingdom, and Alexandria; morality proves tricky in wartime.

[facestabber]

The whistling Saviours are back to open this episode. That spells serious trouble for the Kingdomers. A wall of SAVIOUR machine guns and...........nevermind plot armour again.

[JDP]

Well, "Evil Morales" did not last long! Unfortunately we did not get a bit more info regarding what exactly happened to his family. Daryl is turning into "Morgan 2". LOL @ Gregory having the nerve to show up at the Hilltop again, after all the crap he has done.

[MinionZombie]

Really enjoyed that episode! Aaron returning to find nothing but a bloody tree - and then the sight of Eric as a walker shambling off to join the herd was wonderfully done and packed real emotional weight. We don't get the chance for that sort of thing when someone turns into a walker on this show, so it's nice to get it from time to time. We've lost three familiar supporting players so far - I'd imagine we'll lose a big name or two by the time All Out War comes to a conclusion. We're escalating. The Rick/Morales scene was great, as was seeing Daryl going full Shane - the Rick/Daryl brotherhood is in trouble. Enjoyed the Morgan/Jesus throw down (really looking forward to that long haired Saviour getting snuffed out some time). Hubris challenged once again at the climax, too - another episode ends leaving me eager to see the next episode. I'm rather enjoying this! TWD 8x03 Memes:   The whistling Saviours are back to open this episode. That spells serious trouble for the Kingdomers. A wall of SAVIOUR machine guns and...........nevermind plot armour again. Plenty of people within leaping distance of Ezekiel, and they're got a 'protect the King' mindset (as we saw last week IIRC with Gerry). Nothing there that's hard to swallow IMHO. Daryl is turning into "Morgan 2". LOL @ Gregory having the nerve to show up at the Hilltop again, after all the crap he has done. Morgan 2? More like Shane MkII, if you ask me - acting ruthlessly and without question. Daryl's takedown of Morales was unexpected and helped show a schism between these two new brothers from another mother - first it was Rick/Shane, now it's Rick/Daryl. Hopefully Daryl can pull back from the edge, though, unlike Shane who was clouded by envy and greed and an unstable mind. Speaking of Morales, I think they covered it enough in the episode - a simple line was all they really needed - Morales lost his family, he was waiting to die, then the Saviours found him. The sort of stuff he would have encountered would have been very similar to what Rick & Co experienced. Gregory at the hilltop was hilarious - what a great scene - and Xander Berkeley is doing a fantastic job portraying the character, who was as much of a scheming weasel in the comics, but there's a few more shades to this incarnation, which makes for a very entertaining character to behold.

[Moon Knight]

The scene where Aaron watches an undead Eric slowly shamble towards the looming Walker herd from a close distance was haunting and sad. Ross killed it. I felt really bad for him. Makes sense for Daryl to go rogue like that considering everything he’s been through with the Saviors; and let’s face it, it’s totally in character. He ain’t taking no prisoners. Morales was brought back simply to sway Rick away from turning into a senseless monster. Morales brought up some interesting points about him and Rick. Wish he stuck around a bit longer but I’m not mad he’s gone. He served his purpose. Lol @ Gregory.

[facestabber]

Minion I wasn't referring to the ambush at the end. Which was flawed as well. In the opening Ezekiel and his merry band end up facing 20-30 Saviours with machine guns pointed at them. Then Carol has an ambush set to a flank. Ok fine, nice tactic but not one SAVIOUR got off rounds and took down Kingdomers. I know Ezekiel was beloved in the comics but his speeches are cringe worthy. Maybe I'm wrong but based off Carols expressions, I think she's put off by his Kingesque speeches. I can't quit on Rick Grimes but my interest in this show is fading fast. It's a shell of what it was and repetitive

[Moon Knight]

What do you mean no one got hit? You mean Ezekiel himself? Because I’m sure plenty of them got him including two of his main Kingdom members, who shielded Ezekiel. I don’t mind Ezekiel, his speeches are over the top for a reason, the payoff just has to be done well. Im not a fan of his in the comic but his show version as usual is just more likeable. My opinion of course. I can see why folks consider him cringeworthy. I dig him though.

[facestabber]

What do you mean no one got hit? You mean Ezekiel himself? Because I’m sure plenty of them got him including two of his main Kingdom members, who shielded Ezekiel. I don’t mind Ezekiel, his speeches are over the top for a reason, the payoff just has to be done well. Im not a fan of his in the comic but his show version as usual is just more likeable. My opinion of course. I can see why folks consider him cringeworthy. I dig him though. Is this the Twilight zone or have I lost my mind. The very first engagement we see Ezekiel get into, to start the episode. After which he constantly reminded everyone that no Kingdomers were lost etc etc. Not one kingdome person went down while standing in the open to a large group of Saviours with weapons ready. This shit is just inconsistent. We either see a well organized and lethal group of Saviours or we get completely and utterly incompetent. But since there is so much confusion I'm questioning my sanity and will have to rewatch the beggining again.

[Moon Knight]

Is this the Twilight zone or have I lost my mind. The very first engagement we see Ezekiel get into, to start the episode. After which he constantly reminded everyone that no Kingdomers were lost etc etc. Not one kingdome person went down while standing in the open to a large group of Saviours with weapons ready. This shit is just inconsistent. We either see a well organized and lethal group of Saviours or we get completely and utterly incompetent. But since there is so much confusion I'm questioning my sanity and will have to rewatch the beggining again. Noooooo, your sanity is fine! Lol I just realized I read your statement wrong. You wrote “wasn’t referring” and I read it as “was referring”. My bad, bro. As far as the Saviors not opening fire in the beginning, don’t forget they want the King alive. Remember what Morales said to Rick? That close they probably wanted a surrender instead of a firefight. Maybe a little inconsistent when compared to the final scene but I’m not losing sleep over it.

[facestabber]

Noooooo, your sanity is fine! Lol I just realized I read your statement wrong. You wrote “wasn’t referring” and I read it as “was referring”. My bad, bro. As far as the Saviors not opening fire in the beginning, don’t forget they want the King alive. Remember what Morales said to Rick? That close they probably wanted a surrender instead of a firefight. Maybe a little inconsistent when compared to the final scene but I’m not losing sleep over it. Haha ok. I thought I was losing it. Negans no kill list was cool. I hope the 'widow' makes him eternally regret Glenn's death with his own.

[Moon Knight]

Haha ok. I thought I was losing it. Negans no kill list was cool. I hope the 'widow' makes him eternally regret Glenn's death with his own. Yeah, man, I’m loving Maggie’s evolution. Another thing, I heard people mentioning Gregory said something about a mole within the Survivors group, I’m assuming I missed that? I never miss important beats like that but I guess I automatically assumed he was talking about Jadis. I’ll need to watch that scene again.

[facestabber]

Yeah, man, I’m loving Maggie’s evolution. Another thing, I heard people mentioning Gregory said something about a mole within the Survivors group, I’m assuming I missed that? I never miss important beats like that but I guess I automatically assumed he was talking about Jadis. I’ll need to watch that scene again. Interesting I missed the mole statement. I loved the pancake exchange. That was exceptionally delivered and funny.

[MinionZombie]

In the opening Ezekiel and his merry band end up facing 20-30 Saviours with machine guns pointed at them. Then Carol has an ambush set to a flank. Ok fine, nice tactic but not one SAVIOUR got off rounds and took down Kingdomers. As far as the Saviors not opening fire in the beginning, don’t forget they want the King alive. Remember what Morales said to Rick? That close they probably wanted a surrender instead of a firefight. ^^^ What Moon said. Rick, Maggie, and Ezekiel are all high prize targets to be taken alive - they are the leaders of the group - indeed, this mirrors (somewhat) the need to take Negan down in a manner that isn't chaotic (to avoid a power vacuum). I can't quit on Rick Grimes but my interest in this show is fading fast. It's a shell of what it was and repetitive This just doesn't make a lick of sense to me at all. I find it odd how some folks are going on about "repetitive" - yet at no point in the show's run have we had a whole collection of linked-up communities going to war with each other, and knowing what's in store all I'll say is that the conclusion of All Out War is not a 'rinse and repeat' of what has come before. The "repetitive" thing makes even less sense to me considering we're now beyond the whole 'just surviving in the wild' thing - we're now into a phase of re-establishing a working society, birthing a new one out of the fog of war. I'm not meaning you, facestabber, more the IGN type crowd, who seem to be hellbent on making themselves not enjoy the show by looking to inflate "problems" beyond all proportion (as well as crucifying TWD for issues they let other shows get away with), as if it's now 'cool to hate' on TWD. Frankly, I'm feeling that the other show - Fear The Walking Dead - is partly to blame, especially when it's aired right before TWD's new season. It sates the zombie appetite in some of the audience (despite being a clearly inferior show) and negatively impacts on TWD itself.

[Wyldwraith]

As promised, I return with the significant shedding of Savior blood: Things have been interesting so far, but my biggest problem so far isn't even something that happened in the show itself. During Talking Dead, one of the questions directed Gimple's way was "Why didn't Rick & Co take the fight to Neegan and his lieutenants once it became obvious they weren't going to surrender?" Gimple's answer, that "Rick & Co don't want to be responsible for slaughtering all the non-combatants inside the Sanctuary" rung more than a little hollow in light of the fact Team Anti-Savior Coalition (T.A.S.C for short) lead several thousand Walkers to surround the building. Even IF the Walkers can't eventually get in (and that's a BIG IF when it comes to a gathered Walker horde surrounding a bastion of the living) they're condemning those people to a slower death as supplies run out, waste increases, and a few hundred people remain in close contact with each other in cramped quarters to encourage the spread of disease. It's not a deal-breaker, but I would've loved to have even a general idea how many Savior combatants there are. Quite a few times in three episodes we've seen ten to twenty Saviors gunned down in short order, plus a group of fifteen or so taken captive. I don't think an estimate of 120+ downed/dead Savior combatants would be overly generous. Just how many guys and gals does Neegan have? Without even a vague number, these skirmishes of ten or eleven Saviors and 1-2 Coalition members dead, plus a few wounded on each side can go on and on, without we viewers having much sense of how much or how little progress is being made in toppling Neegan. I'm not accusing the writers of the following yet, but I'm developing a sinking suspicion that they're keeping the number of Savior combatants so amorphous so they can just keep having more bundles of 15-20 Saviors pop up at this or that locale for as long as they like. Which won't dry up until Neegan is confronted and dealt with. Anyone else feeling a similar vibe?

[MinionZombie]

When it comes to numbers of 'background extras' and 'bit parts' in a whole bunch of TV series there's always going to be an element of convenience for the writers and production crew. These aren't your lead characters, but they inhabit the world. There are various Alexandrians who are background figures in shots, and we've had plenty of people from their ranks get bumped off along the way. It'd be a logistical and practical nightmare trying to wrangle all of them accurately across multiple seasons. This is just something we have to let go and suspend disbelief over as it affects many TV shows of this nature. It's why in films like John Wick you have a lot of goons wearing similar clothes or - more importantly - masks to cover their faces. The reason being that the stunt crew is made up of only so many people, so you've got to disguise that fact. Another example, in this very episode of TWD in fact, is when the walkers roll down the hill - as seen on Talking Dead they used a handful of the same performers, but redressed them for different camera set ups to make it look like more walkers were tumbling down. As for the Saviours' numbers, there's an element of us the viewers being kept in the dark so we get a little bit of the Team Rick experience of not knowing for sure. With a network of outposts spreading far and wide, they'll have a good number. I, too, have wondered about their numbers in certain scenes were lots of them are getting dealt with - but I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the above reasons. That's my take, anyway. ... The walker herd being led to the Sanctuary? I considered it more of a 'siege' idea - you basically contain the main base by surrounding it with walkers. The base gets locked down - nobody in, nobody out. The outer fence at the front has been breached by the RV bomb, but the general integrity of the building is very solid and defendable. Of course, it would help if they communicated a few of these decisions a little better in the script so the internal logic was more clear to viewers.