The "Land" AFTER "Day" debate... an old topic, but some things to consider

[nycbsn]

First off, hello to everyone, I'm not really new here but I just re-signed up, I used to be a member in the late 90s/early 00s but have since gone through various email changes and my original user name (which I don't even remember at this point) got lost in the shuffle. But regardless, hi to all On to the topic... Now, sorry to bring this one back, I know this is a pretty old discussion on here but I just have to comment about this because I was just watching Land of the Dead the other day after quite some time and I've read several older messages about this topic, I think many people are overlooking some key things about the "Land before Day" vs "Day before Land" debate... First of all, two things (bare with me): 1. Based on what I've learned from all four films (I don't count "Diary" and "Survival", sorry, I feel like they are totally disconnected from the rest in many ways but that's me), I believe it's safe to say that several cities in the United States were able to *hold* the territory and fortify it as they did with Fiddler's Green (formally known as the downtown section of Pittsburgh, PA before all hell broke loose). Meanwhile, the other 99% of cities in the USA got to the point of being overrun (i.e. Philly in "Dawn of the Dead"). With that said, those fortified cities existed during "Dawn of the Dead" AND "Day of the Dead". 2. The biker gang from "Dawn" could very well be from Fiddler's Green since Monroeville isn't very far from there. Also note that the gang doesn't show up until a few months into the outbreak (by a few months, I mean after Peter & co take over the mall and Fran's belly gets bigger), possibly indicating that it took some time and effort for Kaufman to regain control over the downtown section of Pittsburgh and make it his own. Also, in "Land", we see Blades as one of the zombies invading Fiddler's Green, could it be that he went there because he remembered it? It was an important place in his life (ala what Stephen said in "Dawn" about the mall zombies)? Now with all of that out of way, the fact that the "Day" crew appear to be the only ones left while in "Land" we see fortified cities with survivors should be no reason to disregard that "Land" takes place AFTER "Day". Here's why... The "Day" crew was stuck all the way down in Florida and they were using an old radio. Also note that their helicopter ventures only went 100 miles each way, so since the city in the opening of "Day" is Fort Myers, 100 miles south of Fort Myers would put the bunker towards the end of the Everglades (according to Google Maps). Now could it just be that the "Day" crew were the only survivors left in FLORIDA? Because with that old-ass radio and not much helicopter fuel, there is no way in hell they are going to come into contact with a fortified city on the Northeast coast like Fiddler's Green. I don't know about everyone else but after taking that into consideration, I have no problem accepting that Kaufman, Riley, and Cholo were living the fortified life in Fiddler's Green during the events of "Day of the Dead". We don't know how many cities were held and fortified and we don't know how far away they are. In "Land", Cholo mentions Cleveland being one of them but Riley said he hasn't heard from them in months. So there, Cleveland and downtown Pittsburgh were definitely held and fortified. Where else? Who knows, perhaps there was one on the west coast too, but obviously none of those fortified locations were in or around Florida so for all the "Day" crew knew, they were f***ed. As for society's use for money (which I've read some using to help determine the timeline of these films), the "Day" crew had absolutely no use for money given their predicament. The survivors in "Land" had a city while in "Day", it was only a dozen people forced to live in a bunker, what are they gonna do with money down there? Open a store? It served no purpose to their environment. In relation to Fiddler's Green existing during "Dawn" (or at least being 'in the works'), here's something else to consider: If you listen to the radio broadcasts in the mall (before Peter and Roger go 'shopping'), it mentions (from the script) "REPORTS THAT COMMUNICATIONS WITH DETROIT HAVE BEEN KNOCKED OUT ALONG WITH ATLANTA, BOSTON AND CERTAIN SECTIONS OF PHILADELPHIA AND NEW YORK CITY", it does not mention Pittsburgh at all so it's very possible that they could have had a better handle on the problem than other places. Sorry if this was too long. Thoughts?

[sandrock74]

I never had a problem with the idea of fortified cities existing during the events of "Day". They were pretty isolated, so a fortified city 101 miles away from the "Day" crew could have existed for all anyone knows! That said, I can't wait to see Philly chime in on this! That'll make for some fun reading!

[nycbsn]

I never had a problem with the idea of fortified cities existing during the events of "Day". They were pretty isolated, so a fortified city 101 miles away from the "Day" crew could have existed for all anyone knows! That said, I can't wait to see Philly chime in on this! That'll make for some fun reading! Exactly. The "Day" survivors could only travel so far from their bunker before running out of fuel. It's not like they could stop at Orlando or some place and refuel to go to Georgia looking for survivors. They were pretty much stuck in Florida. I think the possibility that Florida was entirely lost to the zeds is the reason why we see no fortified cities in "Day" and why those survivors were unable to establish any contact with them. There could have been an outpost in Atlanta, Las Vegas, Houston, Flagstaff for all we know, but none of those cities are anywhere within radio range of the bunker.

[EvilNed]

To me, it's not really a debate. In Land, it's clearly stated / very heavily implied in dialoge that the outbreak took place 3 years ago. After having recently rewatched Day of the Dead I can say there's no way in hell that film takes place 3 years into the outbreak, judging from where the group is at in their tension and relationships. The scientists, for one, don't seem to know the soldiers that well. Fischer having to explain to Sarah how Rhodes is to deal with. They've been down there a couple of months, tops. Still, I much prefer Day as a film. So that doesn't weigh into it.

[Trin]

I agree with the generally accepted timeframes: Night - the first night, duh Dawn - 3 weeks to 6-8 months Day - 9-12 months Land - 3-5 years I contend that Day could not have been after Land. Resources: In Day the consumables in their confined place are too well intact. They still have medicine in the first aid kit. The lightbulbs all work. They have water and fuel and the liquor is just starting to run out. They still use the helicopter to explore... not to scavenge. They search for survivors, not resources. In Land they have converted to a scavenging based society. They no longer look for survivors. They look for supplies. Medicine is short. Luxuries are scarce and hoarded. Society: In Day they are still trying to cure the problem. They have not given up on saving society as it previously existed. That implies it is still recent. In Land they've converted to the new reality of living in a zombie world. It would take a long time to start treating former family members as target practice and side-show fodder. Direct time-frame acknowledgement: In Day the statement is made that the research might not show results for months or even years. That statement implies they'd only been down there for months so far, not years. In Land several statements are made that imply that the situation has existed for years. No car has left this garage in 3 years. I've worked for you for 3 years. There's more on both sides, of course. But those are the most relevant points in my opinion.

[nycbsn]

I agree with the generally accepted timeframes: Night - the first night, duh Dawn - 3 weeks to 6-8 months Day - 9-12 months Land - 3-5 years I contend that Day could not have been after Land. Resources: In Day the consumables in their confined place are too well intact. They still have medicine in the first aid kit. The lightbulbs all work. They have water and fuel and the liquor is just starting to run out. They still use the helicopter to explore... not to scavenge. They search for survivors, not resources. In Land they have converted to a scavenging based society. They no longer look for survivors. They look for supplies. Medicine is short. Luxuries are scarce and hoarded. Society: In Day they are still trying to cure the problem. They have not given up on saving society as it previously existed. That implies it is still recent. In Land they've converted to the new reality of living in a zombie world. It would take a long time to start treating former family members as target practice and side-show fodder. Direct time-frame acknowledgement: In Day the statement is made that the research might not show results for months or even years. That statement implies they'd only been down there for months so far, not years. In Land several statements are made that imply that the situation has existed for years. No car has left this garage in 3 years. I've worked for you for 3 years. There's more on both sides, of course. But those are the most relevant points in my opinion. You're right, all of that makes sense. Being that Dawn's story ended in March (based on their apartment calendar), I always thought Day was in the same year as Dawn but just a few months later (hence October in the film).

[Philly_SWAT]

That said, I can't wait to see Philly chime in on this! That'll make for some fun reading! Well, I aim to please! I will say something to the original post last, and reply to some others first. To me, it's not really a debate. After having recently rewatched Day of the Dead I can say there's no way in hell that film takes place 3 years into the outbreak, judging from where the group is at in their tension and relationships. The scientists, for one, don't seem to know the soldiers that well. Fischer having to explain to Sarah how Rhodes is to deal with. They've been down there a couple of months, tops. I have had the same job for about 4 years now, and there are several people IN MY OWN DEPARTMENT that I have NEVER LAID EYES ON. And some of the ones I have met, I am sure I would not recognize them if I saw them at the mall, and I am usually pretty good with faces. It is not outrageous to think that years could pass and people dont know people they work with very well. As the only female there, it is very reasonable to assume that Sarah went out of her way to not go around the testosterone fueled men of the military. It wouldnt take long for all involved to at least consider the possibility of harrassment or worse on their part. Hell, look at all the sexual assault in real life now. It is also reasonable that her friends like Fisher would go out of their way to make sure she doesnt have to interact much if at all with them. But you talk about the group and their tension and relationships, I say it is much more telling when they come back from their search and say "There's a new grave" and Nicotero replies "Major Cooper died this morning" just as casual as you tell your wife that you are taking out the garbage now. No looks of sadness, not even a look of normal human compassion from anyone upon hearing this news. I would like to think that only a few months into the outbreak, simple civility wouldnt disappear that quickly. And I certainly hope that someone who had risen up the ranks of the military like Rhodes wouldnt turn into a murderer is such short order. I would certainly hope that type of behavior wouldnt manifest itself until after many years of tension and desparation. I agree with the generally accepted timeframes: Night - the first night, duh Dawn - 3 weeks to 6-8 months Day - 9-12 months Land - 3-5 years I contend that Day could not have been after Land. Resources: In Day the consumables in their confined place are too well intact. They still have medicine in the first aid kit. The lightbulbs all work. They have water and fuel and the liquor is just starting to run out. They still use the helicopter to explore... not to scavenge. They search for survivors, not resources. In Land they have converted to a scavenging based society. They no longer look for survivors. They look for supplies. Medicine is short. Luxuries are scarce and hoarded. Presumably if the shit was hitting the fan, you would send your research teams to the best stocked facilities around so they COULD last for years in comfort instead of wasting precious research time looking for food. The place was HUGE for such a small number of people. We only see a small portion of it, it isnt unreasonable to assume there could be HUGE stores of food, alcohol, smokes, etc. In Land, rather than say they "no longer look for survivors, they look for supplies" I say they do not yet have the luxury to look for survivors, they are barely getting their shit together as they are still close to the time of the outbreak. Society: In Day they are still trying to cure the problem. They have not given up on saving society as it previously existed. That implies it is still recent. In Land they've converted to the new reality of living in a zombie world. It would take a long time to start treating former family members as target practice and side-show fodder. I would say in Land, they are still trying to live in the OLD world, using money to buy goods and services, etc., which to me shows they are not far into the outbreak. There still fresh shock and PTSD could easily cause many brains to look for a way to cope/escape/make sense of the unsenseable/etc to shoot at zombies as fun. In Day, there only reason for existing is to try to find a cure. The scientists are taking that seriously. Again, I would hope they didnt empty the brig and send the worst of the worst to support the research team, and if they sent top notch soldiers, I would hope they wouldnt threaten to kill civilians after only a few months. Direct time-frame acknowledgement: In Day the statement is made that the research might not show results for months or even years. That statement implies they'd only been down there for months so far, not years. In Land several statements are made that imply that the situation has existed for years. No car has left this garage in 3 years. I've worked for you for 3 years. Saying the results might not show for months or years implies nothing as to how long they have been there. "No car in 3 years" is always mentioned. But if I said to you "Hey I had sex with my girlfriend last night. Man, its been like FOREVER since I had sex with her", would you interpret that as I had never had sex with my girlfriend, or would you take it as common every day exaggeration. "worked for 3 years" certainly a powerful man like Kaufman would have had people work for him BEFORE the outbreak, and then continue to use those trusted associates AFTER the outbreak as opposed to looking for all new guys all of a sudden. Exactly. The "Day" survivors could only travel so far from their bunker before running out of fuel. It's not like they could stop at Orlando or some place and refuel to go to Georgia looking for survivors. They were pretty much stuck in Florida. I think the possibility that Florida was entirely lost to the zeds is the reason why we see no fortified cities in "Day" and why those survivors were unable to establish any contact with them. There could have been an outpost in Atlanta, Las Vegas, Houston, Flagstaff for all we know, but none of those cities are anywhere within radio range of the bunker. I guess you are not familiar with the great State of Florida, we do have gas stations and stuff all over the place down here, even in Orlando. I have used them! And if they wanted to go to Georgia and for some reason didnt want to take the chopper, they could easily take a bunch of vehicles, there would be empty ones everywhere. I am sure Billy knows how to hotwire a car and cyphon some gas. We don't know how many cities were held and fortified and we don't know how far away they are. In "Land", Cholo mentions Cleveland being one of them but Riley said he hasn't heard from them in months. So there, Cleveland and downtown Pittsburgh were definitely held and fortified. Where else? Who knows, perhaps there was one on the west coast too, but obviously none of those fortified locations were in or around Florida so for all the "Day" crew knew, they were f***ed. As for society's use for money (which I've read some using to help determine the timeline of these films), the "Day" crew had absolutely no use for money given their predicament. The survivors in "Land" had a city while in "Day", it was only a dozen people forced to live in a bunker, what are they gonna do with money down there? Open a store? It served no purpose to their environment. I think that the issue of money is an important one suggesting that Day occurs after Land. The establishment of a new currency is something that would take A LONG TIME after all existing currencies lost all their value. It is almost impossible to believe that after 3 years people would STILL BE, or even worse to ponder, REDISCOVERING the idea of just sitting around in the green and being rich and using money to buy tvs and mink coats while poor people barely scrape by right outside the door. The ONLY WAY that makes sense is that there are still close to the beginning of the outbreak, so that many people are still deluding themselves that life can continue as it always had. The shared horror of living in a dead world would bring everyone into the same class I think, no way a privlidged class could last, much last go away and THEN come back, after 3 years. As far as Day goes, it makes perfect sense that the bunker waS designed to be stocked for years worth of survival. Hell, there are private citizens that have bunkers NOW that have 3 years of supplies in them. Their inability to find any survivors shows me that they are FURTHER into the outbreak, certainly not closer to the start. The existence of outposts in LAnd and not in Day points to Land being closer to the beginning of the outbreak, not further out. If anything, since they were so far apart geographically, the best I could say is that it has no bearing on "when" the movies are.

[nycbsn]

Well, I aim to please! I will say something to the original post last, and reply to some others first. I have had the same job for about 4 years now, and there are several people IN MY OWN DEPARTMENT that I have NEVER LAID EYES ON. And some of the ones I have met, I am sure I would not recognize them if I saw them at the mall, and I am usually pretty good with faces. It is not outrageous to think that years could pass and people dont know people they work with very well. As the only female there, it is very reasonable to assume that Sarah went out of her way to not go around the testosterone fueled men of the military. It wouldnt take long for all involved to at least consider the possibility of harrassment or worse on their part. Hell, look at all the sexual assault in real life now. It is also reasonable that her friends like Fisher would go out of their way to make sure she doesnt have to interact much if at all with them. But you talk about the group and their tension and relationships, I say it is much more telling when they come back from their search and say "There's a new grave" and Nicotero replies "Major Cooper died this morning" just as casual as you tell your wife that you are taking out the garbage now. No looks of sadness, not even a look of normal human compassion from anyone upon hearing this news. I would like to think that only a few months into the outbreak, simple civility wouldnt disappear that quickly. And I certainly hope that someone who had risen up the ranks of the military like Rhodes wouldnt turn into a murderer is such short order. I would certainly hope that type of behavior wouldnt manifest itself until after many years of tension and desparation. Presumably if the shit was hitting the fan, you would send your research teams to the best stocked facilities around so they COULD last for years in comfort instead of wasting precious research time looking for food. The place was HUGE for such a small number of people. We only see a small portion of it, it isnt unreasonable to assume there could be HUGE stores of food, alcohol, smokes, etc. In Land, rather than say they "no longer look for survivors, they look for supplies" I say they do not yet have the luxury to look for survivors, they are barely getting their shit together as they are still close to the time of the outbreak. I would say in Land, they are still trying to live in the OLD world, using money to buy goods and services, etc., which to me shows they are not far into the outbreak. There still fresh shock and PTSD could easily cause many brains to look for a way to cope/escape/make sense of the unsenseable/etc to shoot at zombies as fun. In Day, there only reason for existing is to try to find a cure. The scientists are taking that seriously. Again, I would hope they didnt empty the brig and send the worst of the worst to support the research team, and if they sent top notch soldiers, I would hope they wouldnt threaten to kill civilians after only a few months. Saying the results might not show for months or years implies nothing as to how long they have been there. "No car in 3 years" is always mentioned. But if I said to you "Hey I had sex with my girlfriend last night. Man, its been like FOREVER since I had sex with her", would you interpret that as I had never had sex with my girlfriend, or would you take it as common every day exaggeration. "worked for 3 years" certainly a powerful man like Kaufman would have had people work for him BEFORE the outbreak, and then continue to use those trusted associates AFTER the outbreak as opposed to looking for all new guys all of a sudden. I guess you are not familiar with the great State of Florida, we do have gas stations and stuff all over the place down here, even in Orlando. I have used them! And if they wanted to go to Georgia and for some reason didnt want to take the chopper, they could easily take a bunch of vehicles, there would be empty ones everywhere. I am sure Billy knows how to hotwire a car and cyphon some gas. I think that the issue of money is an important one suggesting that Day occurs after Land. The establishment of a new currency is something that would take A LONG TIME after all existing currencies lost all their value. It is almost impossible to believe that after 3 years people would STILL BE, or even worse to ponder, REDISCOVERING the idea of just sitting around in the green and being rich and using money to buy tvs and mink coats while poor people barely scrape by right outside the door. The ONLY WAY that makes sense is that there are still close to the beginning of the outbreak, so that many people are still deluding themselves that life can continue as it always had. The shared horror of living in a dead world would bring everyone into the same class I think, no way a privlidged class could last, much last go away and THEN come back, after 3 years. As far as Day goes, it makes perfect sense that the bunker waS designed to be stocked for years worth of survival. Hell, there are private citizens that have bunkers NOW that have 3 years of supplies in them. Their inability to find any survivors shows me that they are FURTHER into the outbreak, certainly not closer to the start. The existence of outposts in LAnd and not in Day points to Land being closer to the beginning of the outbreak, not further out. If anything, since they were so far apart geographically, the best I could say is that it has no bearing on "when" the movies are. While your take is interesting, I still don't think we can determine the timeframes of Day and Land simply by paying attention to "the use of money" and "how people are living life in the post-zombie apocalypse". Like I said earlier, the people in "Day" have no use for money whatsoever, they don't have a fortified community like the people in Fiddler's Green, there's no sense of a "society" in the underground bunker, they're stuck all the way in the everglades. If they left the bunker and found a fortified Atlanta or Kissimmee or some place where goods are sold/bought, then I can see the "Day" people putting more emphasis on dollars. They had different problems to worry about, they really thought they were the only ones left. I would go as far as rephrasing what you said in this respect.... "In Fiddler's Green and Cleveland, they are still trying to live in the OLD world, using money to buy goods and services, etc.", not "in Land", but in "Fiddler's Green and Cleveland". I don't think using the movies themselves as an appropriate factor in judging the timeframe. We're talking about a worldwide epidemic which has killed off AT LEAST 99.9% of the population, right? So who is to say that one or two communities in Puerto Rico had better control over the situation as opposed to New York City which could be completely lost? It's possible that several states were completely lost, including Florida. Fiddler's Green would have no knowledge of Sarah, John, etc.'s existence due to the given circumstances shown in the films. Just because a dozen exhausted and desperate military/science people trapped in a Florida bunker with poor radio equip are only trying to find a cure does not mean that Mr. Kaufman is living the Fifth Ave lifestyle in a walled off Pittsburgh. That's like saying because the US has iPhones and all these cool gadgets, then North Korea must be living the same way as us, simultaneously. Different environment, different circumstances. No equality. Regarding helicopter fuel and the state of Florida, it's not that I'm not too familiar with it, it's the fact that what you're proposing that they can do is a high risk for those survivors. For all we know, they'll probably come across more empty gas stations/cars than they will any that have enough fuel in it (remember in "Dawn" when everyone was running from their posts and the survivors were discussing fueling/airports during the helicopter trip?). Sure they could search on the way up north, but it's way too risky. They'll probably run out of fuel just looking for fuel on the way up north. Perhaps, off screen, they had already tried this route within the surrounding area close to them but found no fuel. Regarding using a car or different vehicle, I agree, but you might run into the same problem regarding finding fuel plus have to deal with the high possibility of blocked off or congested roadways. If anything, I think they should have taken a boat up the northeast coast. Why they don't consider any of these options, I don't know.

[Wyldwraith]

Well, For once I'm not going the hyper-detailed route, so I'll keep it brief: Everything about Day screams older than Land, but some things in Land strongly imply its further into the future than Day is. Confusing I concede. However, the points made about Rhodes and the others flipping out like they had ring true with me. I find it difficult to lend credence to the notion the government is going to setup a research team to find a cure, send them to a stocked underground bunker, but send along a bunch of hyper-aggressive/psychologically borderline types who've had more than their fair share of run-ins with the MPs. Just look at Steele's behavior about forcing Miguel into helping corral the test-zombie, then trying to feed him to a zombie when the obviously exhausted man failed in the task. Military esprit de corps DOES NOT BREAK DOWN QUICKLY. There are 85yr old WWII Vets who haven't seen an old Marine Corps buddy since they were shipped back stateside after Okinawa, who 65yrs later would STILL jump on a grenade to save said buddy. Let's put that aside for a moment though, and even go so far as to classify Miguel as Full Metal Jacket-embellished "blanket party bait" so far as the rest of the unit is concerned. Under COMBAT CONDITIONS the number of made-it-through-boot personnel who would dare to behave that way, in the entirety of a given branch of the military only 6-12 months into a stressful combat posting can be counted in double digits. The chances that MULTIPLE misfits of this sort found their way into the same assignment, at a time when the military is no doubt throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the front-line fighting? Astronomical. YEARS into that Hell? Sure. Not months, no way. If they were going to empty the brig and put them back on duty it would probably be in high-risk, low responsibility functions. Stuff like holding a given intersection, not providing security for the USA's last hope. Could go into it at length, but I think this argument alone, as alluded to by others previously, holds water without further support. Day has to be further down the timeline than Land, or else Romero really screwed up with the chronological atmosphere-setting.

[nycbsn]

Well, For once I'm not going the hyper-detailed route, so I'll keep it brief: Everything about Day screams older than Land, but some things in Land strongly imply its further into the future than Day is. Confusing I concede. and Could go into it at length, but I think this argument alone, as alluded to by others previously, holds water without further support. Day has to be further down the timeline than Land, or else Romero really screwed up with the chronological atmosphere-setting. I agree with you about the tone. That is one of the reasons I don't like "Land" all that much (not as bad as "Diary" and "Survival" but still...), I didn't particularly like the tonal transition between the closing of "Day" and the opening of "Land" specifically. I could think of quite a few ways "Land" could have been done even darker than "Day" but that's another topic. However, when you look at it from the bigger picture (i.e. how different survivors from different parts of the WORLD are dealing with the post apocalypse), it makes a little more sense. "Day" was only bleak for the people down in that bunker, that doesn't mean it was bleak for Fiddler's Green. We have to look at it this whole thing within a "As The World Turns..." meets Zombies perspective. This is not "Star Wars" where we are following the same characters throughout the entire trilogy, these films are episodic tales of different survivors from different locations with varying circumstances. In "Star Wars", we followed Luke, Leia, and Han through the same circumstances in all three films. Same with "Alien", it makes sense that things are bleak in "Alien 3" because Ripley is the only central character we've ever known for the entire series. When you look at it that way, then the idea of Kaufman having a threesome with some Fiddler hookers in his penthouse *while* Sarah is cutting off Miguel's arm and going into an emotional breakdown, suddenly doesn't sound so awkward after all.

[Philly_SWAT]

While your take is interesting, I still don't think we can determine the timeframes of Day and Land simply by paying attention to "the use of money" and "how people are living life in the post-zombie apocalypse". Like I said earlier, the people in "Day" have no use for money whatsoever, they don't have a fortified community like the people in Fiddler's Green, there's no sense of a "society" in the underground bunker, they're stuck all the way in the everglades. If they left the bunker and found a fortified Atlanta or Kissimmee or some place where goods are sold/bought, then I can see the "Day" people putting more emphasis on dollars. They had different problems to worry about, they really thought they were the only ones left. I guess I do not see how what you are saying indicates that the events in Day happen before the events in Land. True, you can not determine the timeframe "simply" by paying attention to the use of money, that is why I mentioned SEVERAL things to consider. Perhaps if our hero's from Day DID find an outpost that used money they might need/want some money themselves, however, we see no indication they are looking for goods, so that argument seems irrelevant to the timeline. I mean, in real life right now, I would like to have all the money I can get, BUT if I had years worth of food and didnt have to pay electric bills, didnt have to pay ANY bills, could just take anything from anywhere that I wanted and literally did not have to suffer ANY consequences (like jail time, etc), then I would not need any money whatsoever. That is the situation they were in. I don't think using the movies themselves as an appropriate factor in judging the timeframe. LOL! Not sure what to say to this one! We're talking about a worldwide epidemic which has killed off AT LEAST 99.9% of the population, right? So who is to say that one or two communities in Puerto Rico had better control over the situation as opposed to New York City which could be completely lost? It's possible that several states were completely lost, including Florida. Fiddler's Green would have no knowledge of Sarah, John, etc.'s existence due to the given circumstances shown in the films. This is true, however, I fail to see what bearing it has on the topic at hand. Just because a dozen exhausted and desperate military/science people trapped in a Florida bunker with poor radio equip are only trying to find a cure does not mean that Mr. Kaufman is living the Fifth Ave lifestyle in a walled off Pittsburgh. That's like saying because the US has iPhones and all these cool gadgets, then North Korea must be living the same way as us, simultaneously. Different environment, different circumstances. No equality. This is not just something I disagree with, it falls more into the category of "doesnt seem to make sense". Regarding helicopter fuel and the state of Florida, it's not that I'm not too familiar with it, it's the fact that what you're proposing that they can do is a high risk for those survivors. For all we know, they'll probably come across more empty gas stations/cars than they will any that have enough fuel in it (remember in "Dawn" when everyone was running from their posts and the survivors were discussing fueling/airports during the helicopter trip?). Sure they could search on the way up north, but it's way too risky. They'll probably run out of fuel just looking for fuel on the way up north. Perhaps, off screen, they had already tried this route within the surrounding area close to them but found no fuel. To be clear, I wasnt "proposing" anything, I was only responding sarcastically to what you said, which didnt really make sense. I was trying to be nice by not calling attention to the fact that it didnt make sense, but since you posted a bunch more that doesnt make sense, I have to point it out now. To be clear, someone may disagree TOTALLY with what I am saying, and I may in fact be wrong, but everything I say makes sense within the context of my own arguments. Your arguments are not something I can really say seem "right" or "wrong", they dont make enough sense to judge in that fashion. Regarding using a car or different vehicle, I agree, but you might run into the same problem regarding finding fuel plus have to deal with the high possibility of blocked off or congested roadways. If anything, I think they should have taken a boat up the northeast coast. Why they don't consider any of these options, I don't know. We have no idea what they have considered in the time they have been in the bunker. We see only a few days worth of their activities in the movie. Whether they have been there several months or several years, either way we have no clue what plans/ideas/etc have been discussed and/or implemented earlier. I agree with you about the tone. That is one of the reasons I don't like "Land" all that much (not as bad as "Diary" and "Survival" but still...), I didn't particularly like the tonal transition between the closing of "Day" and the opening of "Land" specifically. I could think of quite a few ways "Land" could have been done even darker than "Day" but that's another topic. The reason you agree about the tone is one of the main reason I say the events in Day happen after the events in Land. However, when you look at it from the bigger picture (i.e. how different survivors from different parts of the WORLD are dealing with the post apocalypse), it makes a little more sense. "Day" was only bleak for the people down in that bunker, that doesn't mean it was bleak for Fiddler's Green. We have to look at it this whole thing within a "As The World Turns..." meets Zombies perspective. This is not "Star Wars" where we are following the same characters throughout the entire trilogy, these films are episodic tales of different survivors from different locations with varying circumstances. In "Star Wars", we followed Luke, Leia, and Han through the same circumstances in all three films. Same with "Alien", it makes sense that things are bleak in "Alien 3" because Ripley is the only central character we've ever known for the entire series. When you look at it that way, then the idea of Kaufman having a threesome with some Fiddler hookers in his penthouse *while* Sarah is cutting off Miguel's arm and going into an emotional breakdown, suddenly doesn't sound so awkward after all. Again, not sure this really makes sense, regardless of whatever the truth is about the timeline. If you are suggesting that the events in the two movies could be happening at the same time, that is a valid argument to make, however, I suggest that THE WAY you are trying to make that argument doesnt seem valid. If things seem bleak in a civil war movie but more happy in a WWII movie, that doesnt suggest that they COULD be occuring at the same timeframe. Well, For once I'm not going the hyper-detailed route, so I'll keep it brief: Everything about Day screams older than Land, but some things in Land strongly imply its further into the future than Day is. Confusing I concede. However, the points made about Rhodes and the others flipping out like they had ring true with me. I find it difficult to lend credence to the notion the government is going to setup a research team to find a cure, send them to a stocked underground bunker, but send along a bunch of hyper-aggressive/psychologically borderline types who've had more than their fair share of run-ins with the MPs. Just look at Steele's behavior about forcing Miguel into helping corral the test-zombie, then trying to feed him to a zombie when the obviously exhausted man failed in the task. Military esprit de corps DOES NOT BREAK DOWN QUICKLY. There are 85yr old WWII Vets who haven't seen an old Marine Corps buddy since they were shipped back stateside after Okinawa, who 65yrs later would STILL jump on a grenade to save said buddy. Good point. Let's put that aside for a moment though, and even go so far as to classify Miguel as Full Metal Jacket-embellished "blanket party bait" so far as the rest of the unit is concerned. Under COMBAT CONDITIONS the number of made-it-through-boot personnel who would dare to behave that way, in the entirety of a given branch of the military only 6-12 months into a stressful combat posting can be counted in double digits. The chances that MULTIPLE misfits of this sort found their way into the same assignment, at a time when the military is no doubt throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the front-line fighting? Astronomical. YEARS into that Hell? Sure. Not months, no way. If they were going to empty the brig and put them back on duty it would probably be in high-risk, low responsibility functions. Stuff like holding a given intersection, not providing security for the USA's last hope. Well said, imo. Could go into it at length, but I think this argument alone, as alluded to by others previously, holds water without further support. Day has to be further down the timeline than Land, or else Romero really screwed up with the chronological atmosphere-setting. To be honest, I dont think Romero thought about it as much as we do whatsoever

[EvilNed]

I have had the same job for about 4 years now, and there are several people IN MY OWN DEPARTMENT that I have NEVER LAID EYES ON. And some of the ones I have met, I am sure I would not recognize them if I saw them at the mall, and I am usually pretty good with faces. It is not outrageous to think that years could pass and people dont know people they work with very well. As the only female there, it is very reasonable to assume that Sarah went out of her way to not go around the testosterone fueled men of the military. It wouldnt take long for all involved to at least consider the possibility of harrassment or worse on their part. Hell, look at all the sexual assault in real life now. It is also reasonable that her friends like Fisher would go out of their way to make sure she doesnt have to interact much if at all with them. Highly unlikely. They have no outside stimulus. There is only this world. There's 18 people (from the start) at the bunker. Only way you'd not know how each of them were after 3 or 4 years is if you were in a coma for the the first 36 months. That coma is omitted in any dialoge as far as I know. But you talk about the group and their tension and relationships, I say it is much more telling when they come back from their search and say "There's a new grave" and Nicotero replies "Major Cooper died this morning" just as casual as you tell your wife that you are taking out the garbage now. No looks of sadness, not even a look of normal human compassion from anyone upon hearing this news. I would like to think that only a few months into the outbreak, simple civility wouldnt disappear that quickly. And I certainly hope that someone who had risen up the ranks of the military like Rhodes wouldnt turn into a murderer is such short order. I would certainly hope that type of behavior wouldnt manifest itself until after many years of tension and desparation. 3 or 6 months is plenty for all of that. It is sufficent time.

[Trin]

You guys are focused on the military in Day assuming they were hand-picked for this highly critical job. Did you ever consider that they were just the misfits who happened to be stationed at this crappy post in the Florida everglades minding the shop on a stack of government records in a decommissioned missile silo? There is no portraying this place out to be a state of the art research facility that is stocked and prepared for this kind of emergency. They had no military vehicles, no support staff, no modern radio equipment, etc. The impression I get is that the government hastily dropped some scientists into a hole. Looking at the military situation... I'm surprised they stayed disciplined for a year. They've lost contact with the government and their superiors. They have suffered roughly 50% casualties and rising. Their military situation is characterized as hopelessly outnumbered. They conduct dangerous operations daily. They are low on men and ammunition and they have no indication that resupply, reinforcements, or relief is coming. Oh, and they discovered evidence that the scientists they were risking their lives for every day were FEEDING their fallen comrades to the enemy. On the opposing side, it doesn't make sense to conclude that Land is early outbreak when they have instated a heirarchy of paid jobs for scavengers, military, police, and security forces. They use a vehicle specially built for scavenging, they have to have requisition papers to take vehicles out, and they have id badges to move throughout the city. They have electricity back on in the city, electric fences erected to keep the zombies out, and the military is stating, regarding the zombies, "They don't much come around anymore." It's absurd to imagine that they couldn't mount a search for survivors when we see them romp recklessly through Union town with a dozen vehicles and we know that Kaufman has set up outposts outside the city. Another angle to look at is Cholo's financial standings. The scavengers do runs once a week per the comment, "Whole lotta trash this week." We know that a run is worth $20K to Cholo per the statement, "With the 20 grand from last night..." We know that Cholo has compiled all his money together to get a place in the Green per the statement, "...and all the other nights together." We know that Cholo has ~$5 Million in the bank of Kaufman when he states he wants to withdraw it. That's.... $5 Million at $20K/run... with 1 run/week ... or 250 weeks... ~5 years!! Even if you start whittling away at the math (more runs per week, more money per run, other income sources) there's no way Cholo managed to make that kind of money in 3 months.

[shootemindehead]

Regarding the personnel setup, the "military" in 'Day of the Dead' are reservists. They aren't regulars. In fact, they wear the patch of the U.S. Army Reserve 99th on their sleves, I believe. So they aren't the cream of the US military. In addition, Sarah mentions that the operation the scientists are involved in was put together in a matter of days. That and their relatively tiny number, indicates that the scientific team in 'Day of the Dead' are a very small scale situation, set up in extreme haste and probably soon enough after everything went to shit. In my opinion they've probably been operatng in the silo for some months, the better part of a year perhaps, while a lot of things continued to go downhill, including communication with Washington. The events in 'Land of the Dead' are years after the outbreak, as stated in the actual film. To me "Fiddler's Green" is a bit on an anomaly, that has been an effective enclave during the apocalypse. It certainly isn't beyong the realms of reality that such a set-up could be possible, if the approaches can be defended successfully. The money issue I can let go as Kauffman's way of controlling the people that are left in the parts of the city and whom are still trying to cling to their old ways. It can suffice as a means of exchange, albeit on a small scale. However, the money thing is simply a Romero oversight and a lazy script mechanisation. Aother bartering tool could have been used, but that would have required a more rigourious explanation as to how that all worked. There's no real debate to me on the timeline. 'Land' definitely comes after 'Day'.

[bassman]

Regarding the personnel setup, the "military" in 'Day of the Dead' are reservists. They aren't regulars. In fact, they wear the patch of the U.S. Army Reserve 99th on their sleves, I believe. So they aren't the cream of the US military. In addition, Sarah mentions that the operation the scientists are involved in was put together in a matter of days. That and their relatively tiny number, indicates that the scientific team in 'Day of the Dead' are a very small scale situation, set up in extreme haste and probably soon enough after everything went to shit. In my opinion they've probably been operatng in the silo for some months, the better part of a year perhaps, while a lot of things continued to go downhill, including communication with Washington. The events in 'Land of the Dead' are years after the outbreak, as stated in the actual film. To me "Fiddler's Green" is a bit on an anomaly, that has been an effective enclave during the apocalypse. It certainly isn't beyong the realms of reality that such a set-up could be possible, if the approaches can be defended successfully. The money issue I can let go as Kauffman's way of controlling the people that are left in the parts of the city and whom are still trying to cling to their old ways. It can suffice as a means of exchange, albeit on a small scale. However, the money thing is simply a Romero oversight and a lazy script mechanisation. Aother bartering tool could have been used, but that would have required a more rigourious explanation as to how that all worked. There's no real debate to me on the timeline. 'Land' definitely comes after 'Day'. I agree with just about all of this. With the exception that I don't really see the money issue as lazy script writing. The whole point of Fiddler's Green is to return people to what was once their normal lives. Those residents are cut off from the outside world and living in their own bubble of "happiness". In that sense, it works that money is still their system of trade. It's not something that can be easily forgotten. More importantly, they don't want to forget it because they want their lives to be like they were before. So it makes sense in the same way Roger, Peter, and Stephen wanted to set up shop in a large shopping mall, imo.