Why people hate LOTD

[bassman]

It's like eating a lush snack and then finding bits in your teeth to suck on for a few hours afterwards. Great metaphor, man. Really.

[Trin]

I recognize the politics in his work. I'm not ignoring that. And I don't label the zombie evolution as a plot hole. I think of it as a plot contrivance to facilitate his message. I maintain that Big Daddy was the first evidence of a zombie evolving. He spontaneously demonstrated skills and behaviors that were not mimicked and not learned. He demonstrated deduction. He overcame his instinct to feed. He was a true leap forward in the species. You guys seem to define any display of intelligence or emotion as evolution. I don't get that. I have no argument that the zombies possess a certain level of intelligence and emotion. And it's repeated throughout all the movies that they can learn. None of that rivals Big Daddy, and none of the previous movies point to an eventual Big Daddy type character emerging from within the zombies. The Bub argument is very frustrating. Bub was not evolved. Bub was trained. He showed no skill that wasn't either taught to him or explained as a skill he was mimicking from his past life. He still showed the instinct to feed even if it was supressed through conditioning. He bears no resemblance to Big Daddy. I saw 3 of these 4 movies when they came out, I've been a fan of the series for over 20 years, and I've voraciously read every interview and snippet of info I can get on the subject. I can tell you that when these movies came out no one was talking about the zombies and their meaning. In years past GAR himself has said that the zombies were nothing more than a backdrop for the human struggle he was depicting. When Day came out Bub was considered a masterful twisting of the knife because after all the viewer's hopes were put upon him he really wasn't different. Romero changed the nature of the zombies with Big Daddy because he needed that to convey his message. Fine. He can make the zombies whatever he wants to support his agenda. I agree wholeheartedly that the analysis you've all put forth for the zombies makes sense within the confines of Land. But I'm not buying that BD was a natural extension of the previous movies and I see the idea that this was always the path as revisionist history to force-fit the events of the past to the mold that Land created.

[bassman]

So you're saying that it's impossible that Big Daddy may have remembered some sort of repression in his past life as he saw it happening to the zombies - his family, if you will? What about the gun? He picked it up and pretty much instantly knew what it was. Keep in mind that Bub did the same thing.....Logan just handed it to him without any teaching. Same with the jack hammer, the fact that sharp objects cut through wood, or the fact that water isn't necessarily harmful.....he recognized it. He remembered. And everything else could have been pretty easily been picked up by watching the scavengers ride about town. But most of it was (as dawn says) simple weapons and remembering his past life. As he started showing the others, they started remembering more too. The same thing that's happened in the original three.

[Legion2213]

I'll never accept land of the Dead and it's smart zombies...one smart zombie, maybe, but a whole hoarde of 'em who instantly understand and follow the other smart one, no way. It's amazing how devisive this movie is. I believe that day also split the fans a bit, but I wasn't a fan back then, so I can't say for sure. Land just "feels" wrong for me...others here seemed to really enjoy it, each to his own I suppose.

[clanglee]

Trin, you are my new favorite person. I have very little time here at work to get my thoughts down, so it helps to have your input, we seem to agree on most things about this movie. Griff, and all you Land-Lubbers (sorry, couln't resist), Until Bub, there was NO zombie evolution evidence. And personally I think of Bub as more of a special zombie with training. Griff If you are going to bring up scripts that never were, take a look at the original Day script. The zombies in that are shooting guns and not eating people, WITH TRAINING!! Scientists and Behavioralists working around the clock. The zombies in Night, Dawn, and Day are essentially the same intelligence level. Basic tool use, loose cooperation. No difference except for Bub. The Z's in Land make intuitive leaps that require human level logic. Expecially Big D. Blowing up the car was what did it for me. Sigh. Anyways, we won't agree on this. Never will. Griff, these movies are indeed for me, I've been a fan almost all my life. I would never tell GAR what to do, his ideas just fell short this time. . end of story.

[SRP76]

I also don't see any "evolution" until at least Day. In Dawn, they did mention the zombies "using tools", blah-blah. So? We SAW them do it in Night, too. It just happened that the program Ben and crew were watching on TV didn't specifically mention it. That's the only difference. The zombies in Dawn were pretty much exactly the same ones as in Night. They weren't any more advanced.

[Doc]

The zombies in Dawn were pretty much exactly the same ones as in Night. They weren't any more advanced. Yeah the only difference was the whole remembering thing. Unless that was Night to ,but I don't recall.

[Griff]

Nyeah, I don't think Bub was trained so much as he was encouraged. With Logan feeding him, he was able to forget about food long enough to take in his environment and, in a first step of evolution, begin to manipulate that environment. Like I mentioned previously, the zombies in Uniontown had probably gone without a decent bite for so damn long, they had no choice but to (re)develop some slightly more useful behaviours. If their evolution, behavioural evolution (we're not talking Darwin here), seems highly accelerated to you, then I can think of two reason why that might be: 1) its a movie and time is money. 2) that's how it usually happens in the real world. Take the industrial revolution, for instance, and the advances that have happened in society over the past 200 years that dwarf anything achieved in the 10,000 prior to that. Ideas built upon by ideas, that's how it usually works. Big Daddy is just the catalyst. The rest of the zombs had the potential to learn and adapt all along, just like Bub.

[darth los]

What about the gun? He picked it up and pretty much instantly knew what it was. Keep in mind that Bub did the same thing.....Logan just handed it to him without any teaching. That's funny. I actually thought that bub was more advanced in terms of using a firearm. He saw it, picked it up, cocked it, aimed it and squeezed the trigger. When big daddy first picked up the machine gun it looked like he fired it by accident and was kind of surprised at what he did.

[clanglee]

Night of the Living Dead - they're all fairly normal, dumb zombies. Dawn of the Dead - specific discussion about them using "bludgeons and so forth". The zeds all flock back to the mall they once called their home away from home. The Krishna zombie figures out that Stephen came from that door and figures its way back upstairs to their hideout and attacks Fran. Then there's the zombie who grabs the gun from Roger, it knows what it's looking at, even if it can't get it's head completely around the concept. It then makes a reasoned choice at the end when it grabs Peter's gun, dropping Roger's in favour of Peter's rifle. When Stephen appears from the elevator as a fellow zombie, they're all ready to pounce on what they think is going to be still a human, but no - he's a zombie - the clawing hands stop sharply and then they all move away - they've recognised their own. Day of the Dead - the main one being Bub, he recognises a tooth brush, a book, a razor and music, he even operates the tape player. He is trained to respond with rewards promised after wards. He recognises a gun, operates it, salutes a fellow army officer and then recoils in anger when the salute is not returned. Bub shies away when Rhodes points a gun right at him, but stands up to him when he has a gun of his own, only getting angry and confused when nothing happens - he even figures out for himself it's because there was no clip in the gun. Bub, once escaped, discovers his master's body (a human he practically idolises or just respects - such as in the scene where he grabs Logan's arm and then feels that they're not too dissimilar after all), he gets confused, upset, has a zombie-cry and then gets angry - spotting a gun - he goes after Rhodes and gets bloody satisfaction, sarcastically saluting him as Rhodes is split in two. Land of the Dead - the next step in zombie evolution, bish-bash-bosh. In night they used bludgeons on thc car window and to break out the headlights. In dawn they showed some of their routines from life but Night zombies may have, for all we know, have the same traits. In Day, we have Bub. Now Bub was special. The charcters in the movie went out of their way to let us know he was special. He was being conditioned by Logan. Trained if you will. But I will admit, that as a zombie, Bub was different. I guess just like Big daddy was different. They both show emotion and rational thought to a degree. But they were one of thousands, millions of zombies. Special. Now I didn't see Big Daddy putting on his lab coat and using the skinner method on his fellow dead heads. So how do they get to be so smart too? Land, MAYBE the zombies are evolved. But if so, it is a huge departure from the first 3 movies. There is no evidence of evolution as a species in the previous 3 movies!! (Which, for a species that does not breed, evolution is impossible anyways)And that is part of what I don't like about Land. Land of the Dead- The next de-evolution in zombie movies bosh-bash-bish [ Nyeah, I don't think Bub was trained so much as he was encouraged. With Logan feeding him, he was able to forget about food long enough to take in his environment and, in a first step of evolution, begin to manipulate that environment. Like I mentioned previously, the zombies in Uniontown had probably gone without a decent bite for so damn long, they had no choice but to (re)develop some slightly more useful behaviours. If their evolution, behavioural evolution (we're not talking Darwin here), seems highly accelerated to you, then I can think of two reason why that might be: 1) its a movie and time is money. 2) that's how it usually happens in the real world. Take the industrial revolution, for instance, and the advances that have happened in society over the past 200 years that dwarf anything achieved in the 10,000 prior to that. Ideas built upon by ideas, that's how it usually works. Big Daddy is just the catalyst. The rest of the zombs had the potential to learn and adapt all along, just like Bub. Glad you made the observation about darwinism. I just jumped on that above. I have one answer for you man, Language. Without a spoken or written language there is no chance of "cultural" evolution, Or culture at all for that matter. Nope, I'm still standing by the opinion that while it was a nice idea, zombies were just a bad vehicle for the message man.

[Trin]

So you're saying that it's impossible that Big Daddy may have remembered some sort of repression in his past life as he saw it happening to the zombies - his family, if you will? What about the gun? He picked it up and pretty much instantly knew what it was. Keep in mind that Bub did the same thing.....Logan just handed it to him without any teaching. Same with the jack hammer, the fact that sharp objects cut through wood, or the fact that water isn't necessarily harmful.....he recognized it. He remembered. And everything else could have been pretty easily been picked up by watching the scavengers ride about town. But most of it was (as dawn says) simple weapons and remembering his past life. As he started showing the others, they started remembering more too. The same thing that's happened in the original three. I'm not trying to suggest that Big Daddy didn't draw from remembered behavior at all. My point is that there are some things he couldn't have and for those he required deductive reasoning, and that trait had little or no precedent in the previous movies' zombies. A few examples: Big Daddy killed the decapitated zombie in an act of mercy because he pitied it for its suffering. Not only does it show empathy for another zombie (show me an example of that in the original movies) but that decision represents a long and complex line of reasoning for which he'd have virtually no frame of reference from his previous life. The water is a great example. What made him think he wouldn't drown? If he'd jumped in and started swimming I might believe it was remembered, but he didn't. He deduced that he could survive underwater. That's an amazing amount of self-awareness. The simple fact that Big Daddy was cognizant enough to teach and lead other zombies is proof enough that he was an aberation. Prior to Land the zombies, Bub included, were virtually ignorant of each other's existence. I don't know why it would surprise anyone that Bub was able to immediately use the gun. As Dr. Logan suggested it appeared Bub had military training given his memory of how to salute. He presented Bub with the gun in an attempt to evoke remembered behavior believing the gun would be immediately familiar to someone who had been military trained. Dr. Logan repeatedly pointed out that the behaviors he elicited from Bub were remembered. Trin, you are my new favorite person. LOL - I've thought several times that we do tend to agree. A few of your posts from the past few pages echo my thoughts very well indeed. I had intended to post something to that affect but instead got ... sidetracked. Big Daddy is just the catalyst. The rest of the zombs had the potential to learn and adapt all along, just like Bub. Now that I agree with. There was huge precedent for the zombies to learn and adapt. And I really have no disagreement with the fact that the zombies learned from Big Daddy so quickly. My disagreement is with Big Daddy existing at all. Like clanglee I wouldn't tell GAR how to make his movies, but this is the "Why people hate LOTD" thread and that's one of my reasons.

[clanglee]

Ok, now I want to say this. This thread can get pretty heated, and I enjoy arguing LOTD with all of you. But I want everyone to know that I respect your opinions and there are no hard feelings towards anyone. If I have come off as disrespectful in anyway, it was unintentional. That being said. . . . . . . . . . . . .Land sux!!!

[bassman]

Big Daddy killed the decapitated zombie in an act of mercy because he pitied it for its suffering. Not only does it show empathy for another zombie (show me an example of that in the original movies) but that decision represents a long and complex line of reasoning for which he'd have virtually no frame of reference from his previous life. Although not a zombie, what did Bub do when he found Logan dead? He was upset that someone he was connected to had been killed. Had this not happened and something was hurting Logan, do you not think that Bub would have empathy for him? Not only that....but have you never had similar feelings in your life? I know I have. Perhaps this goes back to that remembering his past life deal? Perhaps all of his actions could be related to his past life? Anyway....I'm bored with this zombie of a thread. It's gone on long enough for me. I've answered ALL questions about Land in some form or another. Land is a good addition to Romero's franchise to me. If you guys don't see it that way....well....sorry, you're just down one fun movie.

[capncnut]

Anyway....I'm bored with this zombie of a thread. It's gone on long enough for me. You're not wrong. This thread needs putting out of it's misery, can't one of the mods lock it or something?

[ProfessorChaos]

You're not wrong. This thread needs putting out of it's misery, can't one of the mods lock it or something? although i've only posted a couple of times on this thread, i would like to second this notion. how about closing the entire land forum while you're at it...the movie's been out for over two years now.