Dawkins wants to arrest the pope

[JDFP]

dude genuine question, as a christian shouldnt you be more pissed off than the atheists about the covering up of child rape? these are people who have used your religion, the word of your god, to gain your peoples trust so they can take your children and fuck them up the ass because they love it, because taking little timmy from the choir and raping him is just such a great way for one of these sick fucks to get his load blown. I would think the christians would be infinitely more enraged by this. Of course I'm outraged. There's no question that there have been serious offenses committed by a small minority of clergy/staff that is absolutely unacceptable. These people that have committed these crimes and have been convicted of said crimes should be punished to the full extent of the law. I don't think anyone in their right mind would question that: I certainly wouldn't question it. Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church (this is in response to Wyld) has certainly committed (whether by comission or omission) other atrocities throughout history -- as all organized religion (whether made by faith or man-made as a religion) some terrible actions. The Church has answered for these crimes in the past and still continues to answer for these crimes. However, I would argue that the Church today (under the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council) is certainly not the same Church as it was 400 plus years ago. You can't pinpoint crimes committed 400+ years ago on the current Church or her members in faith. It would be like blaming slavery on all WASP's living today. My problem, and what gets my blood boiling, is that I believe that the R.C.C. has been unjustly singled out for the same issues that are prevailing EVERY religion and every faith. There have been accusations of wrong-doing amongst every religion and every creed -- just as many of them (if not more) within EVERY religion and sect/faith. The difference with Catholicism, it seems, is that it's culturally okay to be anti-Catholic whereas someone pointing out these same abuses in other religions would either be labeled as anti-Semitic, racist, or other have other taboos labeled against them for pointing this out. It's a double standard that I see all too common. I absolutely believe that the R.C.C. has been singled out for this terrible issue moreso than other faiths that are just as guilty and have had just as many accusations of wrong-doing labeled against them. I also think that it's inappropriate to call the pope "digusting" or a "dick" or any other uncouth language that Ned has chosen to use in his vitriol against the pope. That's not necessary and it's inappropriate. The question is whether or not Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger acted against canon law in his role as Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. I have seen nothing to state that he did act inappropriately in his position as prefect, but I'd be the first calling for his resignation if it is shown that he did willfully and wrongfully act within that position. The questions has never been whether some of these terrible accusations are true or not, but whether the response that Ratzinger gave as prefect was in line with canon law or not. That's the bottom line -- and at this point I've seen nothing showing that his response was against canon law or his authority within the position as prefect at the time. Anyway, this is the last I have to say on the matter. The rest of the anti-Catholics, Communists (who truly are a blight on humanity), and Atheists can have their field day here ruminating over the "EVIL!!!" R.C.C. while I bow out of this silly and juvenile activity of swapping slurs and insults. I've had enough of it. I just thought I'd put a little common sense and perspective into the matter for the people that aren't left-leaning nut-jobs before bowing out of the equation here. So, have fun following your first amendment right in bashing the R.C.C. as much as you want -- ultimately, no matter what I say or what you say none of us are going to change our opinion on the matter. j.p.

[Danny]

but I swear some Athiests can be just as zealous as the Fundys... Sadly thats the nature of the world nowadays, politics ,religion, music, fashion just about anything is perverted down to highschool "US or THEM" mentality. People are too damn scared nowadays to converse, people instead go "okay, ive said why i am unshakably right, now i will let you speak till i have reason to impress why i am right again, and of course i will not listen to you anyway". We live in a world where there HAS to be a "right", a "winner". the idea that no party in a discussion or a debate on a subject has the correct answer is almost absurd because the cardinal rule of "NO, U!" applies, superseding anything else. -Though honestly thats more politics leaning than anything else. I remember when there was a big reveal about catholic priests and pedophillia when i was in high school. The next week in the mandatory religious education class (which sounds very dark, religious cultures of the world studies would have been more appropriate and less 1984) and the teacher who was a very proud out and out catholic said on the topic something like "These men spread the word of my god, but they are NOT my god. they are men, base and low like all of us. If they break the law in such a base and vile way they are criminals in the eyes of the law and my god and deserved to be punished on earth in life, and in hell thereafter" He was a crass old dude but he was a staunch defender of the ideals of religion doing no harm and this subject is about the most heinous thing you can do. These people arent waging war and killing based on belief, they arent even ranting how dinosaurs were secret tests made from dragons or some such foolishness. there raping there townspeoples children to get there jollies off pure and simple, and thats so wrong its almost beyond words. So as head of this organization the pope needs to be held accountable for harboring these people and covering up hundreds of such cases. Were religion not involved and he was say, a police chief who did the same, or some form of political leader he would be forced to deal with this. Unfortunately the vatican is probably more untouchable than the u.s government. and WITHOUT ANY COMMENTARY ON WHAT CHRISTIANS BELIEVE the vatican has grown fat on peoples money and suffering for centuries. I dont believe in any religion, im well known for saying there all madness and just as false as the contents of a harry potter novel. But that doesn't mean i dont respect what it means to people. But this isnt a case ABOUT people anymore and thats the problem. religion should be a spiritual thing between a man and his beliefs he should not answer to a big group just because they say he should. Were further and further every day from genuine theology and spirituality and closer every day to the church of coke and the temple of pepsi.

[BillyRay]

Well, it's like the old saying: "A church is not a Clubhouse for Saints. It's a Hospital for Sinners." But in other Vatican news, they've decided the Beatles are alright: http://music.msn.com/music/article.a...2915&GT1=28102

[darth los]

Oh, Richard Dawkins, the Atheist's everyman... why don't you hurry up and die and save the world the trouble of dealing with your absurdity? Yet again the liberal media machine is having a field day with this nonsense and absurdity. I have nothing but absolute contempt towards this nut-job. What's next, Dick, are you going to support the arrest of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for their support of prisoners? Not counting the hate speech of Jeremiah Wright that would verge on treason if as early as 50 years ago? Oh, wait, no... you can't do that. That would be racist because they're black! Are you going to support the arrest of Jewish religious leaders who have supported the displacement of Palestinians as being a crime against humanity? No, can't do that either, that's anti-Semitic! Yet, it's perfectly fine and, in fact, in tune with contemporary ideology to attack Rome because that's not inflammatory or racist or anti-Semitic in anyway whatsoever. Sure, let's keep taking shots at Rome in response to the less than 2% of clergy that have been "accused" in some manner of lewd conduct or behavior. Meanwhile, we should ignore the fact (as the media does) that just as many, or more, cases of lewd behavior/conduct have been labeled against Protestant and Jewish authorities as well for their clergy/rabbi's. But, no, we can't say that because it's hate-speech! The sword of double-standards has yet again triumphed. Go ahead, Richard, attempt to arrest the Vicar of Christ with your liberal trumpeters of stupidity, and ensure that your writing career of absurdest postmodernist drivel is cut short. If the time ever came to take up arms for my faith in protection of it, you better believe I'd be on the side of Rome come that battle. j.p. Well, I'm sure you'll agree that supporting something and actually participating in the crime by helping to cover it up are two different things, which is the case here. The second rev. Al or Mr. Jackson aid and abet criminals i'll be right there with you. For the time being though, the pope is the oly one in that paragraph who hold sthat distinction. It's all for the best though. Just another nail in the coffin of religion allowing people to see what bullshit it really is in terms of living up to the impossible pious standards it sets. Let me clarify before someone gets offended. God is perfect. Religion is something perverted by man to suit his needs in order to control ths sheeple. More atrocities have been committed in the name of religion than anything else, so no one should really be suprised that they are perverts/sympathizers as well.

[JDFP]

More atrocities have been committed in the name of religion than anything else, so no one should really be suprised that they are perverts/sympathizers as well. You know, I said I wasn't going to respond to this thread any more, but I couldn't resist here, Los. You're right, if you include the man-made religion of Communism as a religion then yes, religion has caused some of the greatest atrocities of all time (generally by those who know nil to nothing about their faith and are ignorant). If you're not including Communism, then the 100 million murderered and far more destroyed by Communism has done much greater harm than faith-made religions could ever hope to achieve. Well thought out post, as usual, Los, even if I disagree you do a good job of expressing your opinions. j.p.

[EvilNed]

As for the Pope being a dick and disgusting, I don't see why anyone who's pro-pedophilia could be anything BUT. Okay, Okay, I realize the Pope is not pro-pedophilia. But he is willing to cover these stories up just so that he can save the reputation of his church. Just because anyone believes the Pope is infallible, does not mean I have to abide by that. As for Catholicism (or even Communism) that's really a different debate altogether. The Pope is what we're here for. And if the Pope is/has been protecting pedophiles (of which there is surfacing some evidence to indicate) then he is a dick. Simple as that.

[darth los]

You know, I said I wasn't going to respond to this thread any more, but I couldn't resist here, Los. You're right, if you include the man-made religion of Communism as a religion then yes, religion has caused some of the greatest atrocities of all time (generally by those who know nil to nothing about their faith and are ignorant). If you're not including Communism, then the 100 million murderered and far more destroyed by Communism has done much greater harm than faith-made religions could ever hope to achieve. Well thought out post, as usual, Los, even if I disagree you do a good job of expressing your opinions. j.p. Thank you. i feel the same about you and your posts. It's crazy that two people who disagree as much as we do hardly ever offend each other in their responses. Interesting thought though, communsism as a religion. I think there's a distinction between "classic" religion and just beliving in something religiously, (As in Obama has no birth certificate). Both are very dangerous as anything that humans believe with absolute certainty. When there is that sort of mentality there is no reasoning with the person who thinks that way because in their mind they are in the right, their cause is just and the ends justify the means.

[Wyldwraith]

Want to clarify something, I have no axe to grind against any theistic belief structure, of ANY kind. I do NOT believe in generalized attacks based on sensationalized half-truths and distortions, towards ANYONE. That said, my problem and anger finds (I BELIEVE), justified marks when individuals use the religious or political sects/movements they are a part of to perpetrate crimes against the whole or part of the society they are a part of. Again, allow me to reiterate my position that unlike the many cults, fanatical subsets of any of a number of religions, only the Catholic Church has ever maintained a position of military, political, educational and social dominance over "Western Civilization" for any length of time. Additionally, unlike the many cults that have been destroyed either from within or without when their crimes came to light, and unlike a variety of religious and political subsets that instituted internal reforms, the Catholic Church's modus operandi of Educational, Scientific and Legal oppression only ended when forces beyond the control of the Church FORCED it to end. JDFP, in the same breath you ask for even-handed, fair-minded discussion of the facts, you launch barbed accusations about "Leftist Nutjobs" (which you identify all such dissenters as). How can you say that the Church of today is not responsible for 800 years of Anti-Semitic Indoctrination of its parishioners (which is accepted by mainstream sociologists and the majority of varied historians as a fundamental element taken advantage of by the Nazis to inflame the German populace into a frenzy of Anti-Semitism culminating in the holocaust) I bring up this point specifically because these events happened within the lifetime and homeland of the current Pope. Is that recent enough for relevance in the present? For that matter, where did supporters of Absolute Monarchy as the only form of righteous government get the idea that Kings and Queens ruled by Divine Right? Only in cultures with very politically dominant priesthoods do we see this concept. In Europe that was the Catholic Church. JDFP says the modern Catholic Church has taken responsibility for all the atrocities it perpetrated in the past. So, why is it that NOT ONE NAZI has EVER been excommunicated, yet every Communist on the planet was? How is that accepting responsibility? Yes, the Catholic Church undeniably bears responsibility for the Anti-Semitic atrocities of the Nazis. Just as they bear responsibility for making the Jews the scapegoats/supposed cause of the Black Death before them, which modern historians estimate resulted in a proportional percentage of Jews being rounded up, tortured and burned as during the Holocaust. The current Pope wrote a paper some fourteen years ago DEFENDING the Church's decision to make the Jews their scapegoat during the Black Death. He cites the relative lack of worth of "The Jewish Minority" to the maintenance of social stability, and states definitively that by becoming the target for the afflicted European populace's rage at the lack of aid the Church and Aristocracy failed to provide, the torture and mass-murder of the Jews served to deflect that rage from the Church, thereby allowing it to survive and continue its efforts to maintain social stability. Far from accepting culpability for that atrocity, the Catholic Church of TODAY still maintains they were RIGHT in using the Jews as scapegoats during the Black Death, because the Church's survival had more social worth than the entirety of the European Jewish population. Or how about the Catholic Church of TODAY misinforming MILLIONS of African believers, condemning the condoms that could slow the spread of HIV/AIDS in AIDS-stricken African nations. Taking advantage of the uneducated populace's FAITH in their priests to help them and act in their best interests, to put DOGMA BEFORE HUMAN LIVES. Current enough to be relevant? I can go on and on, and ON AND ON in this vein, but I believe I've made my point. So I will end with this: Last year a Debate was held in the UK. The Question to be debated was: "Is/Has the Catholic Church a/been a force for Good?" With 440 individuals in attendance, the audience was polled on this question before the debate began, and then again once the debate had concluded. Before the Debate, 210 individuals voted No. 91 Undecided, and 89 Yes. AFTER the Debate, 301 individuals voted No, 34 Undecided, 65 Yes. Amazing what a few centuries of historical perspective, a vast increase in the average level of education and the advent of Democracy has done to the Church's image, eh? Now, I will apologize to anyone who feels offended by what I have said. IF they can point out what untrue or unsupported statement I made that offended them. Sincerely, Shawn M. P.

[SymphonicX]

man-made religion of Communism j.p. LOL seriously?

[Wyldwraith]

Apparently, Though what I don't understand is what relevance JDFP's repeated mention of Communism's own atrocities has on the extremely extensive atrocities of the Roman Catholic Church? To me (and this is ONLY OPINION. I am not inside JDFP's mind), it sounds like an attempt to diminish the relative horror of what the Church has done by comparing their crimes to those of Stalin and Mao. Oh, interesting tidbit/trivia for the history-minded: The superstition about Friday the 13th being bad luck has its source in the Catholic Church's rounding up, torture of to elicit coerced confessions, seizure of the lands and assets of the tortured, and finally the burning at the stake of the vast majority of the Knights of the Temple, aka the Knights Templar. And for the fair-minded: Despite their Protestant origins, the Puritans continued the Catholic tradition of Torture-for-Confession to seize the holdings coveted by Puritan community leaders and clergy. If I have ANY axe to grind, it's against those individuals who desecrate what my Lord and Savior lived and died for, and then profit by their atrocities. Which is why despite my relationship with God (which I have NO problem cultivating and maintaining MYSELF), I believe that the Organized elements of the three so-called "Religions of the Book" (Christianity, Islam, Judaism), have been hopelessly contaminated by greed, unimaginable suffering and the horrible murders of tens of millions of individuals. That said, I take equal exception with those Atheists that lump ALL spiritually-minded beliefs in with Organized Religion. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Any conclusions drawn from such comparisons are inherently flawed.

[SymphonicX]

Intelligently said. I've always rounded it down to one phrase: open to idealogy, not to doctrine. Personally I find the whole thing absurd but I certainly wouldn't try to hinder anyone's peaceful practise of faith. I do see the whole thing as a means to control one's life. We live very unpredictable, crazy lives and when shit happens to us, we pray to God to feel as though there's something out there that can regulate the madness and put it in context. Truth is, in my eyes, you'll never make sense of the world nor it's random events. To me God is science, and science is God. It's something that, at this moment, is truly out of our concept of understanding. Also it's worth mentioning that the "organised" element of religion is as fallable as anything else man made. Dispell the notion that God took a parker pen and jotted down his thoughts, or that it "spoke" to anyone who wasn't by today's standards, batshit crazy, and it's plain and easy to see that the oft-ignored failings of most religious texts purely highlight the failability of human kind and is a reflection of our inner demons - sexism, homophobia, ignorance and prejudice. What I'm saying is, the bible, and all religious texts, are fundamentally flawed (and yes, I have read the qua'ran) as is anything written by a human being. That alone should be enough to make people see some sort of sense... But alas. Anyway if the pope is a criminal, I don't care about his religious convictions. He's a criminal, and deserves to be treated as such

[EvilNed]

man-made religion of Communism All religions are man-made, tho.

[Wyldwraith]

More accurate to say all Religions are human-perpetuated, As SymphonicX pointed out, there in an inherent desire common to all humans to make sense of the inexplicable causes of events which happen to us that are beyond our control. If/when you accept that basic realization, it becomes much easier to understand why, despite all the very visible negatives attached to the concept of religion that people are so willing to overlook these failings. Nothing wrong with trying to find one's place in the scheme of things, so long as the seeker keeps the fact that the best they can hope for is to find a personal truth with meaning for THEM foremost in their mind. Ultimately, it's when people begin to believe they have access to "The Truth" in whole or part that the root of all the horrors stemming from theology is revealed. It's (IMHO) only when someone feels they've been elevated above others who do not share their belief in this supposed truth that the process of rationalization that allows one group of people to torment or butcher another group can occur. The search for Truth reminds me a lot of a firearm. Handled responsibly, it can provide many useful services, meeting many important needs. Handled irresponsibly, and it simply becomes an instrument of fear, violence, pain and death.

[SymphonicX]

Yeah I'd agree with you there WW - I think you hit the nail on the head there. The trouble is, it seems that either the loudest voices are overshadowing the more moderate religious people out there, or that the moderates are in such a small minority that the whole thing is jaded by the fundamental lack of empathy from such a large group of people - that it's almost not worth supporting the moderates because ironically, the intelligent ones are too thin on the ground to find any merit in religion in the grand scheme of things.

[Publius]

Ultimately, it's when people begin to believe they have access to "The Truth" in whole or part that the root of all the horrors stemming from theology is revealed. It's (IMHO) only when someone feels they've been elevated above others who do not share their belief in this supposed truth that the process of rationalization that allows one group of people to torment or butcher another group can occur. The search for Truth reminds me a lot of a firearm. Handled responsibly, it can provide many useful services, meeting many important needs. Handled irresponsibly, and it simply becomes an instrument of fear, violence, pain and death. Doesn't a search for truth presuppose that truth exists and is accessible? Otherwise, what's the point of searching for it? And what does it mean to "believe" something if you don't think it's actually true?