My thoughts on land. As Requested.

[SymphonicX]

One big difference between you and Andy...he can ban your ass! LOL....I can see a motivational poster arising from this....

[Philly_SWAT]

Did you read my post in this thread? I realize it is hard to find the way the post-tree works. If so I would be interested to know what you think of it.

[capncnut]

One big difference between you and Andy...he can ban your ass! I was just in the process of putting a line through his name until Andy jumped on MSN. Cruxdustrial, consider yourself lucky pal. Oh my. I really wish you wouldn't leave Crux. There is so much entertainment potential in future posts by you.

[Andy]

Land is not only one of my favorite 'zombie movies' of all time, but one of my favorite movies of all time. I don't know who was asking Andy for his thoughts on Land, but please stop it. Andy is written out of my book as far as I'm concerned and he has lost ALL validity and credibility with me. I definately won't be interacting or speaking with that fellow. This is beyond a doubt, one of the worst threads here at these forums. Why does it keep getting bumped? As for all the hate toward Land, my solution is simple, if you hate it, stop talking about it. And don't worry about talking to fans of Land, such as myself or about fans of Land bothering you because I WILL NOT NOW OR EVER BE TALKING TO YOU. Leave the issue alone, your not changing my mind and im not changing yours. I think your a fucktard, you think im a fucktard, so what? Whats the point? It's kindergarten grade arguing. It's like two kindergarteners sitting there saying 'You're stupid!' and the other one says 'NO! You're stupid!' and the other replies 'NO! You're stupid' and it just continues and continues to no end, while proving absolutely nothing. Which is all Andy has done here, nothing. Good counter-points to all my arguments there Im not trying to persuade you, im not trying to engage you in any kind of argument.. i did say that in my original post and in fact, i dont think anyone in this topic is acting like kindergarteners except for you. I Didnt think you were a fucktard before, in fact i have no idea who you are, but i think you have just shown yourself up to be a total fool with that post. If i dont like land, im to stop talking about it. your telling me what i can and cant talk about on my forums? Here's an idea, if you dont like my topic on land, dont read it or if you feel really compelled to, dont reply with your half minded, foolish gibbering. The whole idea of this forum is for a open exchange of ideas based on romero's movies, whether you like them or not. Now im not even going to give you a warning or ban you, you've shown yourself up and i want other members to see this.

[Mike70]

Now im not even going to give you a warning or ban you, you've shown yourself up and i want other members to see this. don't worry we have. i kind of like land but i'd readily agree that it has some glaring flaws. i certainly do not think that it is a "classic."

[MoonSylver]

don't worry we have. From March: I just wanted to say that I do acknowledge that not everyone, in fact, most do not agree with my assessment of LotD. I realize that out of Night, Dawn, Day & Land, it is Land that is the most hated and gets the most flack. I just want to say, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to differ with me, in fact I think diversity is awesome so please keep it up, I would hate a world that was just clones of me everywhere (I SUCK!). And also, I need more than one mind to cull more than just my insight on things. More often than not, people have better insight than I do. On the same token, I'm just asking that you please don't attack me for liking LotD (so much that it's a classic for me) and please let me just be an LotD fan like I am. That's all I'm asking and I will give you the same rights, you can be a fan of whatever you want and I'll totally support you in it. In this world, there are issues of convictions and issues of preference, my love for LotD is not a conviction (since LotD cannot be a belief per say) but it is a preference. Quite frankly, if you were to disagree with me on an issue of conviction, I'd still support you because I do NOT want clones of me. To now: Land is not only one of my favorite 'zombie movies' of all time, but one of my favorite movies of all time. I don't know who was asking Andy for his thoughts on Land, but please stop it. Andy is written out of my book as far as I'm concerned and he has lost ALL validity and credibility with me. I definately won't be interacting or speaking with that fellow. This is beyond a doubt, one of the worst threads here at these forums. Why does it keep getting bumped? As for all the hate toward Land, my solution is simple, if you hate it, stop talking about it. And don't worry about talking to fans of Land, such as myself or about fans of Land bothering you because I WILL NOT NOW OR EVER BE TALKING TO YOU. Leave the issue alone, your not changing my mind and im not changing yours. I think your a fucktard, you think im a fucktard, so what? Whats the point? It's kindergarten grade arguing. It's like two kindergarteners sitting there saying 'You're stupid!' and the other one says 'NO! You're stupid!' and the other replies 'NO! You're stupid' and it just continues and continues to no end, while proving absolutely nothing. Which is all Andy has done here, nothing. My how time changes some people... Andy, I officially relinquish my title of Big Bad Wolf to you... http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...ad.php?t=13395

[clanglee]

What? Crux is back?!?!?!? Oh Joy!!!

[Danny]

.wat.

[deadpunk]

Meh...as a stand alone film, LAND would not have been so terrible. The problem falls with it being a follow-up to a trilogy that had been so well done that they set the bar about as high as it can get. While its not my favorite movie, I"m guilty of popping LAND in from time to time and giving it a watch. But then, I liked Night90 and Dawn04 (I liked the cast anyway), so take that for what it is worth

[Trin]

@Andy - Good post all around. The only really upsetting part is that you adamantly refuse to be swayed. That seems a waste. You never know, maybe someone here could make you hate it even more. Agree list: - Dead Reckoning = unrealistic - Agreed. Add in the GPS system and remote control. - 500,000 : 1 and yet no zombies - Agreed. I wanted a wall of zombies outside pressing in like on the poster. - Money and Toto - Agreed. I could buy money within the Green under Kaufman's rules. But screw Mister K and you have no more use for money, period. - Military not handling 25-30 zombies - Agreed, though the script makes it sound like Romero envisioned far more. - Riley's behavior - Agreed, he could've left whenever he wanted, or toppled Kaufman, or armed Mulligan, or, or... - Bub & Big Daddy - Agreed. I could take Big Daddy if there was more explanation of why he was different. No, wait, he'd still suck. - Expected more/Got less - Yep. Disagree: - Setting - I think the city surviving in that form is plausible. - Tramps - Clearly the bums on the streets were not always bums. Slack and Mulligan are good examples of that. They'd become that over time under Kaufman's oppressive rule. Along the hate lines I would add: - Zombies walking under the river = absurd. - No defense of the riverfront = absurd. - Leaving Mouse on the docks with headphones = absurd. - "Slack", "Foxy", "Pretty Boy", "Mouse", "Motown", "Chihauauaha", bullfighter guy = stupid names. - Driving off at the end abandoning the residents to the zombie horde = absurd. - Money and Kaufman - Kaufman taking money was even more absurd than Toto wanting it. @SymphonicX - Brilliant post, well said, and agree 100%. @Philly - No, I don't buy that the garage bum was including 2+ years of pre-outbreak time in his "no car has left here for 3 years" comment. It's a reach to think that he would even know that, a further reach to believe he'd consider it relevant to Riley's situation, and a near impossibility that Romero would confuse the subject by pointing the audience toward a time frame he didn't write the story toward. Is it possible? Yes. But only if you ignore far more plausible and likely conclusions. Also, Cholo's comment directly implied he'd been disposing of Kaufman's enemies for that 3 years. "Taking out his garbage." I don't believe that's something he was likely to have been doing pre-outbreak. Again, possible, but not likely. Even without either of the 3 year comments I'd put Land 3-5 years into it. The atmosphere of the surroundings, the decay of the world, and the behavior of the people implied a long period. Regarding fuel: There is a gasoline storage facility 3 miles from my house that can fuel the entirety of Kansas City for 2 weeks. Land had maybe 5 cars, a couple trucks, some motorcyles, and Dead Reckoning. And use of those is severely limited. Fuel is not a problem for 5 years. And, finally, I think the fact that Land leaves a question like "how long into the outbreak" unanswered is ridiculous.

[Philly_SWAT]

I would be interested Trin to hear your thoughts on my theory that the events in Land take place before the events in Day. You speak of my "three years" points as if you think I believe them....I simply offer those as plausible possiblilites, not that I believe them as absolute truth. Either way, I still say that the events in Day are LONG after the events in Land. You say about Land... The atmosphere of the surroundings, the decay of the world, and the behavior of the people implied a long period. I totally disagree with that. I dont think the world looks that decayed, and the behavior of the people (still clinging to concepts like wanting money) show evidence that they are close to the START of the outbreak, not long into it. But either way, I think that the atmosphere of the surroundings, the decay of the world, and the behavior of the people in Day imply a much longer period than Land. Agree, disagree? P.S. Trin - You inspired me to learn something new (for me anyway). I have made a clickable map of the chopper landing area from Day. It is pretty cool I think, however, the pics dont show up properly with Internet Explorer. Do you use Firefox? Works perfectly there.

[Trin]

I think Day was in the 8 month timeframe (roughly where Dawn ended) and Land was 3-5 year timeframe. I recognize that you are not using the "3 years" arguments as proof of a shorter timeframe and that you are only posing possibilities to cast reasonable doubt. My problem is that I consider your arguments implausible possibilties, not plausible ones. I don't consider the "3 years" comments proof of a 3 year timeframe, but I do believe they strongly point to it. But keep in mind that what doubt there is opens the timeframe both ways. For all we know the garage was operational 2 years after the outbreak and we're at 5 years now. That makes a lot more sense to me than assuming the bum was around 2 years prior to the outbreak and just happened to know this particular garage was not in use. Same argument for Cholo & Kaufman. For all we know Cholo began working for Kaufman 3 years into it, and we are seeing events 6 years in. I personally have a hard time believing Cholo was working for Kaufman prior to the outbreak given the disdain Kaufman shows Cholo throughout the movie. So, push comes to shove, we're not going to get anywhere arguing the "3 years" comments. I think they point toward my timeframe. You think there's room for doubt. Neither of us is claiming they prove anything so on that at least we seem to agree. As to the behavior of the people and society: I think you are looking at the society and mental state in each movie and assuming that as time progresses those things decline. So Night comes out first, then Dawn/Land, then Day. So, by that argument, the fact that they still used money in Land shows them to have declined less than in Day, and thus they were earlier in the outbreak. Same for mental state - Day was obviously the worst mental state so that makes it further into the decline and further into the outbreak. Does that about sum it up? Where I disagree is the assumption that the society and mental state would only decline. My belief is that Day was the low point of society and Land was a rebound. I see a natural progressing from movie to movie. Night - Everyone is reactive just trying to survive the night. Living on adrenaline, no time to think about greater ramifications. Dawn - At the start they are still reactive trying to survive from day to day. Toward the end they were considering options for longer term survival (packing the chopper knowing they could not stay in the mall). Some thought was given to the greater ramifications ("when there's no more room..."). You could see the mental strain beginning to take its toll (Peter considering suicide). Day - Day to day survival is not a problem. They were looking to the larger struggle of man vs. zombie in an effort to keep from losing the world. They were still trying to fix the problem, and the mental strain of it had them at the brink. Their own survival was more threatened by their mental state than the situation. They ultimately saw the inevitability of their situation and that there was no world left to save. Land - Society regrouped. They have accepted that the zombie world is their reality. They have learned to live within the zombie world. No one is trying to fix the problem. They're dealing with it. They have dealt with it long enough it is comfortable. Look at the general demeanor of the people. The military stands guard like they've done this for years. They pass the time on the front lines by shooting at stuff in the dark. There is no fear or revulsion at seeing a zombie approach the borders ("stench - high noon"). The dead have long since stopped being thought of as our friends and loved ones. They are now sideshow novelties (Simon and Edgar) and bar entertainment (red vs black). They hang them up for target practice. People have jobs in the zombie world and are worried about pleasing the boss. The scavengers are not only comfortable roaming the zombie world, they are cavalier about it. Let's talk about money. Money was valuable in Land because Kaufman made it valuable. He re-established currency as a means of controlling the people through jobs and vices. The re-establishment of currency and economy, in my mind, is evidence that the society had progressed further back towards recovery. Not evidence it had declined less. The people were past mere survival and looking to better their situations. My biggest point would be this. With Night, Dawn, and Day you can ask how long were they into the zombie outbreak. With Land that question is not even relevant. They weren't INTO the zombie outbreak. They were PAST it. There was no struggle to survive. There was no question of how to stop the zombies. Zombies were the norm for them and they were set for the long haul. If anything, zombies were on the decline. The zombies "pretty much don't come around anymore." Ugh... sorry for the long-winded post. I sincerely hope that at this point the only person still reading is philly. :P And, yes, I would gladly install Firefox for a glimpse at the Day map. I'll try to post some pics of my in-game map of how I envisioned it.

[SRP76]

I dont think the world looks that decayed, and the behavior of the people (still clinging to concepts like wanting money) show evidence that they are close to the START of the outbreak, not long into it. They don't show much of the world anyway, to see any "decay" or lack of decay, really. So that doesn't matter all that much. Especially with outdoor settings, like Uniontown (or whatever it was) - getting the people there to let you, say, break every single window on Main Street and demolish City Hall for your movie can be a bit hard. You could CG it, but that would be a disaster, and everyone here knows it. And the "clinging to concepts" thing only seems off to an outsider - that being us, who have seen other movies with other survivors, with other ways of "life" (if you can call cringing in a cave "living"). To the people there, however, it's different - this is all they have ever known, for all practical purposes. They never went and lived with Peter and the crew, or any of that; they've lived under "the system" before all hell broke loose, and continued to do so afterward, when they happened to stay inside the quarantine zone when the city was locked off. If you don't know any other way, you aren't going to change your way of life. That's the way people are all over the world - you see it every single day. Women are still getting beaten for not wearing veils in some places, for example. The only people exposed to any alternate way are those few - FEW -that actually work on the scavenger crews. Everyone else just sits in the city, rotting away, not having either the A) guts, or B) desire to strike out on their own, or to try to change things on the inside.

[DrSiN]

Re: the time frame. I never took the 3 years comment as placing it before or after Day. I just took it as 3 years from the start of the outbreak. But in any event, it's an unrealistic time frame for a number of reasons. At best it kind of works if humanity has regrouped after 3 years and this is an outpost. The bigger question (and a symptom of the real problem) is why even mention it. Dating the time line was just a bad call. Re: Gasoline. The untreated shelf life of gasoline is about 6 months before it starts to degrade. At about a year, what hasn't evaporated will have suffered from oxidation which changes the chemical composition making it useless. Even treated gas has only about 15 months tops before it goes bad and becomes unusable. But then who says they aren't refining their own crude oil. Pittsburgh has at least one refinery so it's possible. Re: Dead Reckoning. The truck was an icon piece plain and simple. I suspect it was the first idea that the rest grew from. It in my opinion didn't hurt the movie, but it didn't help it. Re: Big Daddy. He didn't bother me. I can accept that given millions of zombies, 1 might retain a little more intelligence. But I do agree it needed to be explained or at least touched on. It also didn't bother me that the others followed him. Normal zombies following a hero zombie have a real precedent in the series (those following Flyboy, Bub). The problem came when Romero forgot that his movies were never really about zombies. The problem with Land was it had a poor script plain and simple. From idea to execution it was just bad. At least they threw out the zombie animals. In this case, the script really sunk the movie. The characters were unbelievable, the setting was disjointed and the message was too heavy handed. All that led to the weakest of the 5 movies. Diary on the other hand has actor trouble (and to a less extent an ending problem). But with a stronger story, it sits slightly above Land. But hey, it's all opinion.

[Trin]

Re: Gasoline. The untreated shelf life of gasoline is about 6 months before it starts to degrade. At about a year, what hasn't evaporated will have suffered from oxidation which changes the chemical composition making it useless. Even treated gas has only about 15 months tops before it goes bad and becomes unusable. But then who says they aren't refining their own crude oil. Pittsburgh has at least one refinery so it's possible. I don't know man. I have a ski boat that has been sitting in my garage for 5 years unused because it leaked. Earlier this year I decided to get off my butt and get it fixed. Prior to taking it to the shop I figured I'd better see if it would still start. It did. The gas in that tank was 5 years old and it was fine. And let's not get into my chainsaw that has been running on the same gallon of gas for 10+ years. lol Maybe Dead Reckoning was converted to run on corn oil and they're using all that deep fat fryer grease to run her. I disagree with the comment about the timeline dating being a bad idea. I want to know when the events are happening, not only specific to the start of the outbreak, but in relation to the other movies. I like to think of the events as being in the same universe and like to imagine what is happening elsewhere in the world as I'm watching what's happening in the world I see. I do agree 100% with the bad script comment. The script was bad, bad, bad. And he had a long time to write it. I mostly liked the characters, so I don't blame that. But they had no motives that made sense. Diary, imho, was worse than Land. Disjointed plot, directionless characters, bad commentary, and a gimmicky feel with the first person thing. I think it should've been called "Vignettes of the Dead" because it was a bunch of little short encounters with zombies that had nothing to do with one another except for the idiots involved.