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Thread: Let's Nitpick Dawn Some More: Time of Outbreak

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    Walking Dead SRP76's Avatar
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    Let's Nitpick Dawn Some More: Time of Outbreak

    In the interest of squeezing every last ounce of arguing out of this movie, I figured I'd start this thread.

    I was thinking earlier (while viewing the chopper thread) about the setup of the mall when our heroes arrive. All the stores were locked down, but every outside entrance was wide open.

    Made me think about how that could happen. If zombies had shambled up during the daytime, the mall would be open for business, so the bloodbath would have left all areas of the mall open. So, the stores in the mall HAD to have already been closed up for the night when the mall was invaded.

    There is a time after the stores all close up, that the mall itself is still open (and the doors are likewise unlocked before the stores open the next day). The zombie invasion had to have happened during this timeframe.

    Further, it had to have happened near the end of this soft zone in time. The mall folks had already shut down all the power. This would be the last thing done before locking the doors up for the night. So, the zombies had to have broken in literally minutes before the mall people could get the doors locked.

    A few minutes could have saved their lives. If shamblers had arrived 5 minutes later than they did, our heroes would have encountered mall security living large in there already.

    Thoughts...?

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    Chasing Prey Yojimbo's Avatar
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    I agree that the breakdown probabaly did occur after hours when the stores are all closed down for the evening but the mall doors have not yet all been locked down.

    Back in my early 20s I was a weekend shift Security Officer at our local mall, and the stores would shut down at 7pm. As I would be clocking out for the day (I worked Day Shift) the Graveyard Shift officers would begin locking down the mall doors leaving only those leading to the parking structure (which had security cameras) to allow workers and shoppers to get out of the mall. They would complete this detail at approximately 8pm and then someone would have to go back through the mall and lock the final doors, leaving only the doors next to the security office open for folks to get in and out of by 9PM.

    I remember that the zombie in the boiler room looked like a security guard, so maybe he was one of the graveyard shift officer assigned to this final detail and got pegged during the process. Perhaps there were still some shoppers and employees in the mall at closing time, just after the stores shut their gates, and then some zombie attacks went down, causing whoever was left to flee in a hurry.
    Last edited by Yojimbo; 24-Dec-2008 at 11:46 PM.
    Originally Posted by EvilNed
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    Walking Dead SRP76's Avatar
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    I'm also thinking they got hit on Saturday night, unlike the poor folks in Night. Night took place on a Sunday.

    But back in the '70s, it wasn't like it is today. Just about nothing was open on Sundays. Even many of the ever-greedy convenience stores were closed. The mall certainly would have been.

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    mall walkers

    At least locally, the common mall areas are open just prior to store openings so that older residents and physically challenged people can get some exercise in a climate controlled and relatively 'safe' environment. Of course, as SRP76 said, the '70's were different and such a program would be highly unlikely, given the decade.

    After reading the topic I had to add this, given my mental image of our local 'mall walkers' being ravaged by the living dead.
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    Chasing Prey Yojimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoodFight View Post
    At least locally, the common mall areas are open just prior to store openings so that older residents and physically challenged people can get some exercise in a climate controlled and relatively 'safe' environment. Of course, as SRP76 said, the '70's were different and such a program would be highly unlikely, given the decade.

    After reading the topic I had to add this, given my mental image of our local 'mall walkers' being ravaged by the living dead.
    Yeah, we had a program like that in our mall in the late 80s, and I used to think it was funny because some of the old folks doing their exercises looked like the living dead.

    I recall that Gaylen Ross said in the Euro commentary that they had a similar senior exercise program at Monroeville when they were filming DOTD in 1978, and one morning after they wrapped for the previous night's shooting she went up to a person who she assumed was one of the zombie extras still in makeup and told them that they had wrapped and that they could remove the ghoul makeup, but then was very embarrassed to find out that the person was not with their production and in fact was one of the seniors who came to the mall to exercise in the morning.

    So if they had the program during the shoot, then Food's point about seniors getting attacked in the mall while doing their morning exercises totally makes sense for 1978.
    Last edited by Yojimbo; 25-Dec-2008 at 12:45 AM.
    Originally Posted by EvilNed
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    Walking Dead SRP76's Avatar
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    I doubt it's possible that the old farts would be eaten. Before letting people in for the morning, the power would be turned on. Since it was off when the heroes arrived, it would have to be in reverse order. Turned off the lights, then never quite made it to the doors. That would be at the end of a day, not the start.

    Odd that we only see one security guard in the movie. I'm assuming there was a whole fleet of them though, just offscreen. It wouldn't make much sense to stick just one dude with securing the entire complex.

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    Fresh Meat venom012's Avatar
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    The mall may have had a movie theater in it and thus the common area of the mall would still be unlocked and full of people catching the late show.

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    I doubt it's possible that the old farts would be eaten. Before letting people in for the morning, the power would be turned on. Since it was off when the heroes arrived, it would have to be in reverse order. Turned off the lights, then never quite made it to the doors. That would be at the end of a day, not the start.

    Odd that we only see one security guard in the movie. I'm assuming there was a whole fleet of them though, just offscreen. It wouldn't make much sense to stick just one dude with securing the entire complex.
    Actually, we're only aware of 1 guard. It's entirely possible that the attack commenced in the morning, the guard in question was injured and ran for the generator room and threw the breakers (people do strange things under stress). Other guards were tasked with securing the perimeter (and weren't successful) and either died or fled. Possibly part of their disaster plan called for a power shutdown which would also explain the lack of electricity. Said guard felt safer in the windowless dark room, succumbed to his injuries, rose from the dead and did his zombie thing when flyboy approached.
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    Twitching sandrock74's Avatar
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    I always wondered what had happened there prior to our heroes arriving. I never thought anyone was killed and eaten at the mall for the simple reason that there was NO bloodstains ANYWHERE to be seen! Not one. The mall was in pristine condition when they found it.
    To me, that was the hard part to explain. It looked like the mall was shut down for the night and then promptly abandonded. No one even bothered to lock the exterior doors.
    Also, no zombies were initially on the second floor, so it seemed like they weren't even there too long. Almost like they had recently wandered in themselves.
    What do you all think?

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    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock74 View Post
    I always wondered what had happened there prior to our heroes arriving. I never thought anyone was killed and eaten at the mall for the simple reason that there was NO bloodstains ANYWHERE to be seen! Not one. The mall was in pristine condition when they found it.
    To me, that was the hard part to explain. It looked like the mall was shut down for the night and then promptly abandonded. No one even bothered to lock the exterior doors.
    Also, no zombies were initially on the second floor, so it seemed like they weren't even there too long. Almost like they had recently wandered in themselves.
    What do you all think?
    This is what I always figured myself. I don't think the mall was ever attacked. I think that one morning, the security guards arrived and unlocked the mall, and then got a call from their employer telling them that due to the current crisis, the Mall would be closed for an indefinite amount of time. And so the security guards just bailed.

    Or something to that effect.

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    That does seem odd that there is no "sign of struggle".

    But I think that's just because of the filmmaking problem of money and permission to splash blood and gore all over the mall. I think an attack had to have happened. Why? Because of three things:

    1. "Maintenance zombie". The one that jumps Roger. For him to exist in the first place, someone would have had to croak in a locked department store. It doesn't make a lick of sense for someone to lock themselves inside a store and die there, unless they have to (like, for instance, leaving the store would get them eaten).

    2. In the script (not shown onscreen, but it proves intent of the storywriter), the mall manager locked himself in his office and shot himself. Why would he do that, unless he was trapped in there for some reason (like zombies roaming the mall)?

    3. "Security zombie". The one that bumrushed Flyboy. This dude was clearly attacked at some point. The most obvious suspect would be zombies.

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    Arcade Master Philly_SWAT's Avatar
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    I really like it when someone brings up a topic I had never thought of before. As is the case here, I never thought about the stores being closed but the main doors being open, good thought SRP76! Of course, the easy answer to that point, and others addressed here, is that GAR simply didnt put that much thought into it. Of course, that isnt a very fun answer, so lets look at the movie itself....

    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock74 View Post
    I always wondered what had happened there prior to our heroes arriving. I never thought anyone was killed and eaten at the mall for the simple reason that there was NO bloodstains ANYWHERE to be seen! Not one. The mall was in pristine condition when they found it.
    You are correct that there are no signs of any types of attack/struggle within the mall. Therefore, for some reason, the main door were unlocked before any of the stores doors were, or the store doors were locked and the main doors never got locked. Either of these two scenarios could be correct, however, the first one seems more likely. If there was no attack in the mall, the only reason people would leave without locking the outer doors would be they received word about the outbreak and were told to leave. However, upon hearing these initial reports, it would seem not believeable that the dead were rising and attacking the living, so while security/others might be more than willing to leave work, it seems unlikely they would be in fear of an attack, especially since none were happening at the mall at the time. Therefore, there would no reason to NOT lock the outer doors as well. So it seems logical that the mall doors were opened early, and then the store doors never got opened. This is a good an explanation as any:
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    This is what I always figured myself. I don't think the mall was ever attacked. I think that one morning, the security guards arrived and unlocked the mall, and then got a call from their employer telling them that due to the current crisis, the Mall would be closed for an indefinite amount of time. And so the security guards just bailed.
    As far as the movie theater thought goes, many malls did used to have theaters open while the rest of the mall was closed, so it is plausible that this could have been the case in Dawn. However, there is not, and never was, a theater in the Monroeville Mall, so surely GAR would not have used this process (again, if he used any at all) to explain the main door/store door issue. We are shown no theater in the movie, it seems as if our heros would have watched some movies, as there were DVD players in existence, and if VHS/BETA were in existence, there use was still sparse. We dont see any in the mall in any event. So although you could say that just because we arent shown a theater doesnt mean there wasnt one, there is in fact no real reason to think that there was one.

    As far as the "old people exercising" in the mall theory goes, that program was in fact in place back when the movie was made, including at the Monroeville Mall. But this is not relevant here, as even if they opened the main doors for this purpose, we still need more explanation as to why the stores were never opened with no sign of attack.

    Couple of more points:
    Odd that we only see one security guard in the movie. I'm assuming there was a whole fleet of them though, just offscreen. It wouldn't make much sense to stick just one dude with securing the entire complex.
    I dont find that odd at all. I have been going to many malls for decades now, and rarely have I ever seen a security guard. Yes I have seen them, but hardly ever. Sometimes just the illusion of security is the only reason companies hire guards. I mean, what is an unarmed guard really going to do? And even if armed, do you think a low paid armed guard is going to open fire in a crowded mall? I dont think so.
    Before letting people in for the morning, the power would be turned on. Since it was off when the heroes arrived, it would have to be in reverse order. Turned off the lights, then never quite made it to the doors. That would be at the end of a day, not the start.
    I see what you are saying here, but I disagree. The power was NOT off when our heros arrived. The control panel (hit em all, we may as well have power in everything) was not the main electrical power. It was to the fountains, escalators, and displays. Any mall leaves power on when the place is empty. Whether is it summer or winter, you cant have no power on at night, to where it is sweltering or freezing when you open the doors for customers. And most malls, and the stores themselves, leave lights on when closed, I assume so that security and/or cops driving by can see inside. If it was it pitch black, it would be easier for thieves to be inside up to mischief without being seen.

    And last few points:
    That does seem odd that there is no "sign of struggle".

    But I think that's just because of the filmmaking problem of money and permission to splash blood and gore all over the mall. I think an attack had to have happened. Why? Because of three things:

    1. "Maintenance zombie". The one that jumps Roger. For him to exist in the first place, someone would have had to croak in a locked department store. It doesn't make a lick of sense for someone to lock themselves inside a store and die there, unless they have to (like, for instance, leaving the store would get them eaten).
    The real reason of course, is that this scene was thrown in at the last second to explain a continuity problem with Roger not having the jacket tied to his waist anymore (with no thought given to "why is someone inside the locked store?") But for a real world explanation, it is not unreasonable to think that a maintenance guy would be inside a store doing maintenance while the store in closed. He fell off a ladder, cracked his head open, and died.

    2. In the script (not shown onscreen, but it proves intent of the storywriter), the mall manager locked himself in his office and shot himself. Why would he do that, unless he was trapped in there for some reason (like zombies roaming the mall)?
    I dont remember this in the script, but it must be there if you mention it. I would say that is also believable that he just committed suicide, either due to knowledge of the zombie outbreak, or at the news that a loved one had just been attacked and killed. Or even non-outbreak related, he just committed suicide. People do it all the time.
    3. "Security zombie". The one that bumrushed Flyboy. This dude was clearly attacked at some point. The most obvious suspect would be zombies.
    There are several reasonable explanations as to how he could have been attacked that would not be zombie related. Or he could have just been drunk and cracked his head and died. Also, it is also possible that he had already been killed off mall property, wandered inside just like the other zombies in the mall, and found his way to the security office. Just as Flyboy "remembered" there was a fake wall and tore it down, that could have been an actual Monroeville Mall security guy who got off work, got killed (many different ways this could happen) before changing out of his work clothes, and wandered back to a familiar place (he didnt know WHY he went to the security office, he just knew he wanted to be in there...)
    Last edited by Philly_SWAT; 27-Dec-2008 at 12:09 PM.

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    I always assumed there was some sort of struggle at the mall before the group arrived. How do you account for the guy laying on the escalator with the hole in his head? He must have been dead and walking when shot because the other undead shamblers ignore him; they step over him once the power is turned on and the moving stairs are once again operational.

    Who killed him? As I recall, Peter and Roger hadn't fired a shot in the mall yet?
    Last edited by jim102016; 27-Dec-2008 at 01:50 PM.

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    Twitching sandrock74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim102016 View Post
    I always assumed there was some sort of struggle at the mall before the group arrived. How do you account for the guy laying on the escalator with the hole in his head? He must have been dead and walking when shot because the other undead shamblers ignore him; they step over him once the power is turned on and the moving stairs are once again operational.

    Who killed him? As I recall, Peter and Roger hadn't fired a shot in the mall yet?
    I had always assumed he was one of the zombies in the mall and, being a typical clumsy zombie, he misbalanced and fell over, striking his head, when the escalator was turned on. There wasn't a hole in his head, it was just blood, like from a head injury, like a fall.

    That's always been my take at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philly_SWAT View Post
    ...We are shown no theater in the movie, it seems as if our heros would have watched some movies, as there were DVD players in existence, and if VHS/BETA were in existence, there use was still sparse...
    There were no DVD players in 1978. VHS and Betamax were very new, very expensive products. I'm not sure if they'd even be available at a mall in small-town PA. They did spend alot of time watching TV, but it was to emergency broadcasts. It's been awhile since I read the novelization; wasn't there a movie theatre in it?
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